Thread: How does the Duel Monsters World in Doma contradicts the Eygptian origin of the game?

That was only the anime. Their duel was a pocket dimension of darkness that kept Bakura's victims from being able to run away.

And yes, DM did keep in line with the Egyptian origin story of the manga. If you're claiming they didn't, I'd like some examples on how the DM concept verred off from its Egyptian roots.

It's a contradiction because it says X originated from Z, and not from Y. I don't understand how you keep defending it, when it's as clear as day. Saying DM spirits came from the different dimension of thought energy, and not the judgment of the priests who extracted the manifested darkness of people's hearts and sealed them into stones with the power of the Millennium Items and Games of Darkness are in totally different leagues.

You misunderstood me, I was talking about Real Life Eygptian myths.

Thing is, that the way I see it, Y and Z are just different sides of the same thing. I don't see anything in the fact that there's a parallel world in which Duel Monsters reside that prevents them from originating from people souls. As I asked earlier, why couldn't the Duel Monsters world be the world of Kas? In fact, it actually explains where all the non Eygptian cards came from.

Originally Posted by cag

You misunderstood me, I was talking about Real Life Eygptian myths.

Thing is, that the way I see it, Y and Z are just different sides of the same thing. I don't see anything in the fact that there's a parallel world in which Duel Monsters reside that prevents them from originating from people souls. As I asked earlier, why couldn't the Duel Monsters world be the world of Kas? In fact, it actually explains where all the non Eygptian cards came from.

Well real life Egyptian mythology doesn't talk about a nameless Pharaoh saving the world. Don't be obtuse. We're talking about the mythology that coincides with the story and was written purposefully by Takahashi.

You just saying they make sense doesn't make it so.

It undermines and contradicts the connection the card game has to the Millennium Items and the Egyptian mythos. The game is connected directly to the original powers of the Millennium Items and the Egyptian history of the game. Not space and different dimensions. They are not different sides of the same thing. You thinking up a monster doesn't automatically make it exist in the original story. The spirits originate from the creation and extraction of ka only certain, powerful individuals with high spirit are able to create. Do you know what Ka symbolize? You make no sense trying to reconcile the afterlife concept of the dichotomy of the human spirit and life energy, with magical dimensions of monsters. It's ridiculous.

There is no world of Kaa in Egyptian mythology. That's the reason why it doesn't make sense. The non Egyptian cards come from Industrial Illusions making cards beyond the Egyptian theme. Just like them making machine monsters. It's still a card game. It doesn't take any other reasoning or explanation.

Well, me saying that they make sense don't make it so, but the reverse isn't true either.

And again, where does the story contradicts that? It only expands it. No one said that thinking up a monster doesn't automatically make it exist in Doma either. The fact that there's a Duel Monsters World doesn't mean that the spirits didn't originate from the creation of ka (or what the Eygptian precived as ka). Just because Eygptians had something doesn't mean that other cultures couldn't have something similar.

But again, that is expansion, not contradiction. As for the non-Eygptian cards, the problem is that the series treats them as if they were also real, or else the whole believing in your deck thing wouldn't make sense, not to mention that Dark Games make the monsters real regardless if they're Eygptian or not.

Seems that we're going in circles, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

No, because the burden of proof to prove that actually falls on you, considering that the plot element you're expounding and supporting is not actually written into the story proper at all and is the odd man out. You've taken the position of now attacking the actual mythology of the original series, claiming its not actually relevant, instead of actually reconciling the actual plot point of the anime with the manga. Because it can't be done. You figure if the you can prove that the Egyptian mythos isn't as solid as I say, that means anything goes, and can be justified as an "expansion."

What does Thought Energy mean? First of all, explain that to me in terms of the series, because from there we can go somewhere, since the entire premise is unexplained and ridiculous from the get go, at first glance. It's just a halfcocked word with no actual justification or exposition within the narrative in the first place. There should not BE a duel monster world because duel monsters come FROM PEOPLE. They come from US. That's what Isis explained to Seto, and that's what Priest Akinadin and Solomon said. The Duel Monsters are PEOPLE. Why would they exist in another dimension? How do they get there? Why would they be there? Who sent them there? Answer that within the confines of the original manga and its origin story that deals with the Ancient Priests, Millennium Items, and Egyptian lore.

The manga states DM came from Egypt, period. Full stop. It was invented by them, and it originated by them. They are by products of the Games of Darkness that were written about and conceived from the Millennium Tome of Sorcery. Do I need to start throwing quotes from the manga at you? They don't come from anywhere else in the manga. No other culture is stated to have had a hand in the creation or conception of the Games of Darkness or Duel Monsters. That's not the story. Get anime nonsense out of your head in terms of discussing what the original canon story was.

That is not expansion, that's contradiction to change the story into something else it was not. The series never treats the non-Egyptian cards as magical or mythological like the Egyptian God cards, Dark Magician, or Blue Eyes White Dragon. Tell me an example of where it does, right now. The cards having a heart concept has nothing to do with ancient magic nonsense. It's faith in yourself and your deck as a duelist.

There is no agreeing to disagree. You're not making sense and are confusing concepts of the anime with the manga.

Why would they exist in another dimension? How do they get there? Why would they be there? Who sent them there?

1) Quantum Mechanics plus Multiple World Theory, desu~.
2) Quantum Mechanics plus Multiple World Theory, desu~.
3) Quantum Mechanics plus Multiple World Theory, desu~.
4) Quantum Mechanics plus Multiple World Theory, desu~.

Originally Posted by NeoArkadia

1) Quantum Mechanics plus Multiple World Theory, desu~.
2) Quantum Mechanics plus Multiple World Theory, desu~.
3) Quantum Mechanics plus Multiple World Theory, desu~.
4) Quantum Mechanics plus Multiple World Theory, desu~.

Don't be cute. I'm talking about the Egyptian mythology that was expounded in the manga, not the plot points of GX that are completely different.

When a Ka is born, it stays within the human body and either corrupts the person from the inside and pushes them towards darkness, or its extracted and sealed within the stones in the Shrine of Widjat. the Priests never sent spirits to a different dimension. Ka either exist in our world, or pass on to the netherworld. Period.

But I'm not attacking the original story, just saying that the Doma story could fit as an expansion.

The Duel Monsters game is still based on the Eygptian Dark Games. Doma doesn't change that, only states that something similar existed in another place.
Please don't put words in my mouth, I never claimed that DM didn't came from Eygpt in the manga.
And I'm asking again, why does DM World = DM aren't from people? Doesn't the fact that the DM world itself is created by people suggest exactly the opposite? Doesn't the fact that not all monsters came to be at the same time suggest exactly the opposite?
Why can't they be there? I always thought of the DM world was just a world for kas. Even when I say that priests drew the monster from there, it's still don't contradict the fact that the monster is a manifatation of the soul of the Man in question, because the man's existence is the reason the monster was in the DM world in the first place. The Millenium Items are the things that allow the priests to do that, so in the end, it all amounts to the same thing.

If the cards have a heart and should be treated accordingly and doing so is implied to affect the game, then the cards aren't just plain cards.

EDIT- Just to be clear, of course there isn't a Duel Monsters World in the original story, I'm only saying that you can add one without really changing anything.

Yes Doma does change that by for one, saying Atlantis came up with the concept before Egypt, and saying they basically channeled Duel Monsters from a parallel universe where they originate from. How does that NOT change the original story? Are you serious? Monsters existing 10,000 years in the past, versus 3,000 years when they were stated to have been created by the Egyptians? Professor Hopkins basically saying the opposite, when he did no such thing in the manga? Just stop, man.

I answered your question already several damn times, so I'm getting tired of you begging the question here. Stop assuming that it makes sense, and actually think about what you're saying. Where in the original manga explanation does Ishizu, or the priests, offer any explanation or context for the priests sending the kaa to a different dimension to live happy lil lives? Where does that fit within what they did 3000 years ago in the dark rituals involving the Millennium Items? Why can't there be a spirit world?

Because that's not part of Egyptian kaa mythology. That's not what the manga states, or history entails. It never says anything about monsters living away from people or being anywhere but reality or the underworld. When Mahad DIED and became a ka with the illusion mage, he didn't go to the DM spirit world, he went to Hell, and then came back. That answers any question about whether or not ka or duel monster spirits have their own world or not, dude.

So again, HOW DO THEY GET THERE? WHO PUTS THEM THERE?

The cards have a heart, thanks to a duelist putting a piece of themselves within the cards. You missed the point. You need to pay attention the manga duel between Pandora, and Yugi. It's not about the cards having magical powers. It's about a duelist not disgracing a piece of themselves and their pride. You're taking it all completely out of context.

Mahad does seem to answer my question, though couldn't returning from hell just mean returning from death, not that he was actually in hell? If it does mean that he was actually in hell, then you answered my question, though I think that you would only need a little change to make it more consistent with the manga.

Originally Posted by cag

Mahad does seem to answer my question, though couldn't returning from hell just mean returning from death, not that he was actually in hell? If it does mean that he was actually in hell, then you answered my question, though I think that you would only need a little change to make it more consistent with the manga.

He says he came back from Hell, or the 'Underworld', depending on if you go by the translation of Viz or the anime. Either way, he's referring to a place, not just a state of being.

But couldn't saying that just be another way to say that he came back from death? Does he actually calls it a place? Just wondering.

Originally Posted by cag

But couldn't saying that just be another way to say that he came back from death? Does he actually calls it a place? Just wondering.

He says he came back and trained in Hell, to help the Pharaoh defeat Bakura, before curb stompaing Diabound with the new techniques he acquired.

I think its safe to say he meant an actual underworld location.

Ok then. Thanks for answering my question!

BTW, according to Yu-Jyo and the parts of the episodes you gave me that I saw, the only one Mai explicitly stated that she was after his soul was Pegasus. But I still need to watch the episodes in full to confirm what was acutally said.

That site goes by Hong Kong subs, not GoldenUmi's subs for one.

And two, wouldn't the fact she deliberately activates the Seal of Oricalchos to take Jonouchi's soul answer your question already? She's gunning for his soul and to beat him with the Seal of Oricalchos. It doesn't get anymore deliberate than that.

If she just wanted to beat him, she wouldn't use the card and stone that creates a Game of Darkness that puts one of their souls on the line and leaves the loser, basically a dead man.

I don't mean to interrupt this discussion, but although the site goes by Hong Kong subs, Cody (the site's owner) knows Japanese somewhat well and has some experience in it. He used HK subs since he uses dial up connection and he couldn't find other subs available when he did his analysis years ago.

Originally Posted by cag

Didn't Bakura mentioned that the Dark Game between him and Ghost Kotsuzuka takes place in a different dimension(or is it just in the anime)?

In the manga, you never saw this duel. There was just a single page spread panel showing Kotsuzuka losing, dying, and Bakura taking his Puzzle Cards.

A Dark Game is described as creating a dark world which only the 2 participants can see. Although during the finale of Battle City everyone could see the dark fog summoned by Malik's hatred, but only Malik and Yuugi could see that the effects of losing life points were causing their other selves to disappear.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

He says he came back and trained in Hell, to help the Pharaoh defeat Bakura, before curb stompaing Diabound with the new techniques he acquired.

I think its safe to say he meant an actual underworld location.

LOL! Like Son Gokuu training with Kaiou-sama in the afterlife?

Just because the Egyptians didn't know about Atlantean society doesn't mean it didn't exist. They had no way of knowing that Duel Monsters already existed in Atlantis.

Does the manga explicitly state that "All Duel Monsters were once Ka, period"? If not, then I really don't see how it doesn't work as an expansion. I'm not well-versed in the manga. I'm asking a legitimate question.

Originally Posted by cheesedude

Just because the Egyptians didn't know about Atlantean society doesn't mean it didn't exist. They had no way of knowing that Duel Monsters already existed in Atlantis.

Does the manga explicitly state that "All Duel Monsters were once Ka, period"? If not, then I really don't see how it doesn't work as an expansion. I'm not well-versed in the manga. I'm asking a legitimate question.

As Mako has stated over and over in this thread, the idea of Duel Monsters as living manifestations of monster cards living in a happy fairy tale dimension is science fiction by manga standards. That entire aspect of Doma seems to be based on the premise that ~*imagination*~ creates other planes of existence where Black Magician Girl, who was originally a physical manifestation of Mana's Ka, and, say, Parrot Dragon, a fictional creation Pegasus likely thought up after a bad acid trip, can somehow co-exist as equals. How this is contradictory should be obvious.

I never gave the issue of BMG that much thought. Yeah, that does pretty much clinch it. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Dr_Watson

As Mako has stated over and over in this thread, the idea of Duel Monsters as living manifestations of monster cards living in a happy fairy tale dimension is science fiction by manga standards. That entire aspect of Doma seems to be based on the premise that ~*imagination*~ creates other planes of existence where Black Magician Girl, who was originally a physical manifestation of Mana's Ka, and, say, Parrot Dragon, a fictional creation Pegasus likely thought up after a bad acid trip, can somehow co-exist as equals. How this is contradictory should be obvious.

I personally have no problem with the whole Duel Monsters world aspect, but if it indeed does contradict the original storyline, then I must say that in that case, the anime and the manga have a major difference in the origin and nature of Duel Monsters.

In the manga, they are off ancient Egyptian origin. Period. Nothing else. No dimension of Duel Monsters created by the human mind.

In the anime, there is a world of Duel Monsters created by the human mind and via *insert quantum mechanics theory* . The reason this whole Duel Monsters world cannot be ignored in the anime is because GX and 5D's have expanded upon it. It's not like it only existed in the DOMA arc, and it was never mentioned again. GX's main plot depends on the very idea of this Duel Monsters Spirit World. So to say that it does not exist or occur is to say that GX or 5D's is not canon to the anime.

Thus why I think the anime and the manga will have this major difference.

Yes the anime series we have now will NEVER have that reality thing that made DM so much more popular.

The DD World in doma GX and 5D's IS A DAMN CLICHE/STEREOTYPE PLOT POINT every damn kids anime uses. I mean come on you guys know about the Duel Master anime (do I really need to mention Bakugan?).
All these kinda of anime use that stereotype in one way or another way.

That stereotype is exactly what Takahashi was trying to stay from as far away as possible.
Meaning he was trying to keep his manga free from kiddie stuff/stereotypes we see mountains of it these days.
Well the DM series based on that manga barely escaped.

I ask you this. Do you think the DM series became so popular, cuz because only of the Doma season or because it managed to keep what its manga made it great ? Cuz only card games would NEVER keep the fan's attention FOR SO LONG. Just look what happened to GX?

And now we have GX and 5D's which continue to hammer on that FILLER SEASON's plot point as if it was the main story of DM and its manga(which it didn't exist in it).

Meaning the creators of GX and 5D's prefered to take the save road with the cliche plot point that was in just 1 season instead of continuing on the manga's MAIN STORY, but just with new characters...

Can't you ppl see that this COMPLETELY contradictory plot point that lone DM season had is just executive meddling and those executives' final choice to just TAKE THE SAFE ROAD. And at the same time make the show more appealing to new younger viewers instead to the loyal fans.
In short with their action they just said SCREW THE ORIGINAL INTENTION OF THE CREATOR he does know sh*t what kids want(specially after DM and its manga's success).
We need money so lest have another stock anime with the card games as the real main point of the story, since that is what kids want to see.
How more wrong than that way of thinking can you be.

That's the thing. I'd kind of give a blind eye and deaf ear to the DD world...if only GX and 5D's did not expand more on it. The main plot of GX and 5D's kind of depends on that aspect of a lone filler season now. Which is why I am saying that the anime and the manga will have some major differences when it comes to the origin and the nature of Duel Monsters itself.

The most non bananas story for the Duel Monster spirits is the manga version.

Everything else is added even if it contradicts cuz its more easy to assimilate by kids.

Up until now no matter how much they have expanded and continue on it. It still is not a better or more believable explanation. And that is just because the manga and the DM anime explained it so good.
Its the executives' problem that they didn't want to continue with the original plot point that was so well formed, but instead expanded a filler plot point that at the same time tries to dismiss the original as a whole.

It just angers me so much that they don't want to accept that GX and 5D's are 2 different realities from each other and from DM. With the only big enough thing that binds them is a children's card game. Yes the present CCG binds them on its origin from DM/DM's manga.
The other things that bind them to YGO! DM and the manga are so minor. A character here. A few lines about the DM's characters and events there, a few fan service episodes. And THATS IT.

And now there is this pathetically short "movie" that also tries to make us believe that GX AND 5D's be sequels of DM. But again this is also made JUST for fan service so, yeah. Sorry but I won't accept. I will still look on it as just fan service. Just like GX's last 2 episodes. Heck I don't even see the difference from the 2.

GX and 5D's are ways better of if they are not involved with the plot of DM or each other. Why the writers can't realize that.

Did you just say that you refuse to believe the Word of God? XD

About what ? The new movie ?

Originally Posted by DARKMASTER

About what ? The new movie ?

That and GX and 5D's expanding upon the DD world and stuff. XD

They are expanding, but only on a filler plot point that is not in almost any way connected to the actual story of the series that this filler was in. That plot point tries to dismiss the original story(which is ways more original) so its better in its own show.

Heck GX's almost entire main plot is the DD world and connected stuff to it.
If only it didn't try to get back to DM it may have been much better.

OK I'm fluent in Japanese and here's how the whole Duel monsters world thing goes. 10000 years ago Iron heart battled dartz along side with the Duel monsters spirits that they have coexisted with and aware of each of their worlds, living in harmony. But when Dartz won that battle the oreikalcos threatened to destroy everything. Before Iron Heart died he traveled the world to seal away the DM world and the DM spirits so darts couldn't get to them. And one of these places that the monsters were sealed was Egypt where 5000 years or so later the "sprits" where projections of peoples' hearts "kaa". This was later abused by the dark preists and was sealed by the pharaoh into stone tablets. And the rest is the yugioh memory arc. And this setting follows through with 5D's also, Egypt isn't the only ancient civilization you know.

Originally Posted by mainstream

Before Iron Heart died he traveled the world to seal away the DM world and the DM spirits so darts couldn't get to them. And one of these places that the monsters were sealed was Egypt where 5000 years or so later the "sprits" where projections of peoples' hearts "kaa".

Pic or it didn't happen. I didn't see any of that in the anime or manga. Or an explanation like this in the anime.
This part is all fan explanation.
Which I cannot accept, cuz well its NOT shown/explained in the anime that it really was like that.
Or at least a flashback or something showing even hinting that the "spirits" are being teleported from their DM world into the Egyptians souls/minds.

You have no idea how much smart FAN explanations I've come up with back then when I only knew about the dub of DM(didn't know even of the card game and how it was played and the dub didn't help).
With which I covered in my mind the giganTHORic plot holes it made by itself(not counting the original plot holes I found most of them latter and here).
One was about the Pharaoh's name. Specially after Ishizu addressed him with it a few eps latter. Then there was the 5000 years Shadow Games thing which was wrong if you know a bit more Egyptian history.