Thread: Consistent Inconsistencies

Scar Red Nova is an unrelated Earthbound God - literally meaning, it's a god that was bound do the earth by the Crimson Dragon. The condor was hailed as the strongest EBG because, for one, Rex and the others might not have known about Scar Red Nova and, for another, it isn't related to that whole set, who work under the King of the Netherworld, who could very well surpass Scar Red Nova in power - again, Scar Red Nova is not related to those other ones. Those other ones are clearly all related, part of a set if you will, and all work for the same source/higher being. They all challenged the Crimson Dragon 5000 years ago - on the other hand, Scar Red Nova tried to do it solo 10000 years ago and was defeated by "Burning Soul".

The problem wasn't introducing this so far after the original EBGs, more like Bommer's suddenly remembering them just when we needed to know it. The facts themselves, however, aren't that big a deal, because how else would we have new plot elements if they introduce everything right away? There would never be another big bad after the first one, never be a Super Saiyan 2, etc. Now that they're established facts, we should be glad for them, I say. Plus it showed us Black Feather Dragon in an ancient battle, to boot.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

Scar Red Nova is an unrelated Earthbound God - literally meaning, it's a god that was bound do the earth by the Crimson Dragon. The condor was hailed as the strongest EBG because, for one, Rex and the others might not have known about Scar Red Nova and, for another, it isn't related to that whole set, who work under the King of the Netherworld, who could very well surpass Scar Red Nova in power - again, Scar Red Nova is not related to those other ones. Those other ones are clearly all related, part of a set if you will, and all work for the same source/higher being. They all challenged the Crimson Dragon 5000 years ago - on the other hand, Scar Red Nova tried to do it solo 10000 years ago and was defeated by "Burning Soul".

The problem wasn't introducing this so far after the original EBGs, more like Bommer's suddenly remembering them just when we needed to know it. The facts themselves, however, aren't that big a deal, because how else would we have new plot elements if they introduce everything right away? There would never be another big bad after the first one, never be a Super Saiyan 2, etc. Now that they're established facts, we should be glad for them, I say. Plus it showed us Black Feather Dragon in an ancient battle, to boot.

Valid points about the Scar-Red Nova; and if it were the first time this had happened, it would be fine. But the very concept of the original show, that Duel Monsters originated in Ancient Egypt, for example, has also been overridden. My point is that it's happening so often that I just sit there going, "Oh really? How long will this be true for?" And I know I'm not the only one.

So other cultures had Duel Monsters in their pasts. It doesn't flat out ever contradict that they started in Ancient Egypt, it just adds to it, and regardless, the original card game DID start by being based off of the ancient Egyptian game - another fact that hasn't ever been contradicted. I'd find it hard to believe only ONE culture at one point in time ever had any monster relations, and the other series/stories have shown that, in fact, other places found them too. I fail to see the issue here.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

So other cultures had Duel Monsters in their pasts. It doesn't flat out ever contradict that they started in Ancient Egypt, it just adds to it, and regardless, the original card game DID start by being based off of the ancient Egyptian game - another fact that hasn't ever been contradicted. I'd find it hard to believe only ONE culture at one point in time ever had any monster relations, and the other series/stories have shown that, in fact, other places found them too. I fail to see the issue here.

Yes it does. Did you not watch the Doma saga, that states that Atlantis discovered Duel Monsters long before Egypt did? The manga states that the Games of Darkness that are spawned from the ka of duel monsters came from Egypt point blank. It is contradicted full stop.

Furthermore the origins of Duel Monsters are contradicted. We're told that they are spawned by the spirits (or ka) that come from human beings, but then we're told they exist in a parallel dimension to our own. Outright contradiction once again. There was no Duel Monster spirit world in the original manga or early anime. That was an addition give by NAS for filler that has carried on.

I also remembered the numerous inconsistencies in the Millennium World arc of the anime. There are so many that I don't even know where to start, but the most egregious ones are the stupid Dia-Dahnk toys, and the messed up origins regarding Thief King Bakura. The anime basically calls Bakura Zorc incarnate, while the manga explains that he's now a part of Zorc, thanks to his making a contract with Zorc and basically giving him his soul. Same as Akinadin.

And of course..the biggest inconsistency of all is the fact Pegasus is alive to begin with, when he was killed by Bakura after Duelist Kingdom.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

It's apparent to anybody who follows the Yugioh Series (as in all 3) that the writer's have a tendency to put their feet in their mouth. Not the same way as Canadian politicians, mind you; more in the sense that they somehow manage to defy their own ideas only a few episodes after they happen.

The recent story arc with the Crimson Devil is a classic example. Wiraqocha Rasca was hailed as "The Strongest Earthbound God", one that wasn't at the Ancient battle. Then comes Scar-Red Nova. First off, after the Earthbound Gods are supposedly destroyed (along with their King), they can be found back in Nazca, sealed by an altar Bommer built (That'll do it? Really?)

Next, we find out it's an Earthbound God, one that predates the others. THEN, they turn it into a variation of Red Daemon's Dragon, after having long since established that the Earthbound Gods and Signer Dragons are enemies. And on top of that, the flashback by Bommer features Black-Feather Dragon in the Ancient Battle, instead of the Original (still nameless) Fifth Dragon.

And this is only one example. There's dozens more. It's as though they don't even try to stay consistent, isn't it?

The Earthbound Gods weren't destroyed. Godwin outright stated that if his plan failed then the world would be doomed to suffer a battle betweenthe Signers and Dark Signers every 5000 years until the end of time.

Well it's pretty apparent that the "King of the Underworld" was destroyed.

...You know, that begs the question...just wtf was the King of the Underworld, in the grand scheme of things? We know what the Earthbound Gods are, and their place in the universe. But what's the King of the Underworld? Is he the boss of all the Earthbound Gods? Is he stronger than the Crimson Devil? What's his purpose?

I just love to see the fans struggle to come up with theories to patch up the pathetic writing of the writers :p.

Sorry but it happened way too many times. And I'm not talking about contradictions that happened to the creator's story.

Why should we think up ourselves the explanations? Why not make severe flashback episodes or something to show and explain it. So at least we have a prove that it did happen. OH WAIT IF SO THESE EPISODES WILL HAVE NO DUELING IN THEM. Have action and plot and not dueling with cards... silly me.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

Well it's pretty apparent that the "King of the Underworld" was destroyed.

...You know, that begs the question...just wtf was the King of the Underworld, in the grand scheme of things? We know what the Earthbound Gods are, and their place in the universe. But what's the King of the Underworld? Is he the boss of all the Earthbound Gods? Is he stronger than the Crimson Devil? What's his purpose?

Oh look, Makoeyes finally agrees with me on something.

Other than a gigantic pudding monster, I can't see that this beast actually has to do with anything. Rudger said it was the Master of the Earthbound Gods, but that raises the question of why it wasn't at the Ancient battle. It's in a total of 3 episodes at the end of the Season, in which is does basically nothing. Then, it gets blown up by Savior Star/Crimson Dragon, leaving us no way to find out.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

Yes it does. Did you not watch the Doma saga, that states that Atlantis discovered Duel Monsters long before Egypt did? The manga states that the Games of Darkness that are spawned from the ka of duel monsters came from Egypt point blank. It is contradicted full stop.

Furthermore the origins of Duel Monsters are contradicted. We're told that they are spawned by the spirits (or ka) that come from human beings, but then we're told they exist in a parallel dimension to our own. Outright contradiction once again. There was no Duel Monster spirit world in the original manga or early anime. That was an addition give by NAS for filler that has carried on.

If you mean the different dimensions of GX, those are... just that. Different dimensions, that have no bearing on the main one except when they cross over, like with the Yubel incident. Furthermore, just because another place discovered them first... doesn't mean anything, it still doesn't override anything. It doesn't say Egypt DIDN'T do it, just that someone else did it first or at another place/time. Big whoop. The "games" that Pegasus based the game off of still came from Egypt.

Also, was the ka thing in the anime? I can't remember, but the anime is what's really relevant here, especially if we're talking GX and 5D's (especially when GX's manga is following the original manga a lot more than either following anime) since those are anime original stuff and the canon/inconsistencies in question - the manga stuff, if not present in the anime, isn't present in the relevant canon. But if it is, then it is, and they could have just found another source, which still doesn't contradict anything, as I said, it ADDS to it - so monsters are found in multiple places. As long as something doesn't come along and flat out say "Duel Monsters DIDN'T come from Egypt", "Duel Monsters DON'T have spirits" and then make it canon, unless it's a retcon or some AU new series, it's not really a super contradiction as much as it is just adding new material for a new series/story arc, like with Dartz.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

And of course..the biggest inconsistency of all is the fact Pegasus is alive to begin with, when he was killed by Bakura after Duelist Kingdom.

Not in the anime he didn't. At this point, the anime and manga, as I said, just have really different canons and the only relevant one here is the anime's - where Pegasus is alive and well and running around in movies and in GX.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

If you mean the different dimensions of GX, those are... just that. Different dimensions, that have no bearing on the main one except when they cross over, like with the Yubel incident. Furthermore, just because another place discovered them first... doesn't mean anything, it still doesn't override anything. It doesn't say Egypt DIDN'T do it, just that someone else did it first or at another place/time. Big whoop. The "games" that Pegasus based the game off of still came from Egypt.

Egypt was mentioned as the BIRTHPLACE of these creatures. Then we find out they were in Atlantis first. Then we find out they created the Universe. That's huge contradiction.

Also, was the ka thing in the anime? I can't remember, but the anime is what's really relevant here, especially if we're talking GX and 5D's (especially when GX's manga is following the original manga a lot more than either following anime) since those are anime original stuff and the canon/inconsistencies in question - the manga stuff, if not present in the anime, isn't present in the relevant canon. But if it is, then it is, and they could have just found another source, which still doesn't contradict anything, as I said, it ADDS to it - so monsters are found in multiple places. As long as something doesn't come along and flat out say "Duel Monsters DIDN'T come from Egypt", "Duel Monsters DON'T have spirits" and then make it canon, unless it's a retcon or some AU new series, it's not really a super contradiction as much as it is just adding new material for a new series/story arc, like with Dartz.

The ka is in the anime, in Japan - 4Kids kinda glossed it over.

Not in the anime he didn't. At this point, the anime and manga, as I said, just have really different canons and the only relevant one here is the anime's - where Pegasus is alive and well and running around in movies and in GX.

That maybe true, but there is something very similar with Bakura's evil half. He goes to the Shadow Realm, then ends up in the puzzle, then the ring goes to Yugi, then somehow the spirit gets back to Bakura without it. Huh?

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

Egypt was mentioned as the BIRTHPLACE of these creatures. Then we find out they were in Atlantis first. Then we find out they created the Universe. That's huge contradiction.

Eh, it's the same thing as the EBGs and Scar Red Nova. More information was added on as the series progressed, that's natural for any series. Besides, as monsters, they could be wherever they felt like, and as spirits, they were only "born" in Egypt... as far as we know. There was never a single statement that said "and by the way, they can ONLY be found in Egypt".

For God's sake, if the series says that X originated in Y, but then 30 episodes later states that X actually originated in Z, and Y was actually late to the party...

That is a contradiction.

The original statement of fact regarding the origin of X, has been changed. Therefore it's a contradiction. If they said that it appeared elsewhere but did not predate Y, then there wouldn't be a problem.

The original canon/the Egyptians/the sources of the original manga that we were reading about just didn't know about where it was elsewhere. How would they? They... were in Egypt. Of course they'd think they originated there. Plus, the other canons didn't exist when it was an issue. But then more canon came, more information/history was discovered, and that was that. It was added.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

Oh look, Makoeyes finally agrees with me on something.

Other than a gigantic pudding monster, I can't see that this beast actually has to do with anything. Rudger said it was the Master of the Earthbound Gods, but that raises the question of why it wasn't at the Ancient battle. It's in a total of 3 episodes at the end of the Season, in which is does basically nothing. Then, it gets blown up by Savior Star/Crimson Dragon, leaving us no way to find out.

I thought to Anubis a lot when he is appeared, I think they are similar. He is appeared when the gates to the Underworld have opened. His name is the King of the Underworld: he must be the ruler of the world of the deads. He could have been locked behind theses doors by Crimson Dragon.

Crow supposedly got his BW when he was In satisfaction, but then we find that his friend, Pearson gave them to him After Team satisfaction was gone. Also in the first season of 5d's We saw the 5th dragon the one that looked like Power tool but then, when Greiger told the legend about Scarred nova, We see BW dragon.

Originally Posted by Ike_Gawain

Crow supposedly got his BW when he was In satisfaction, but then we find that his friend, Pearson gave them to him After Team satisfaction was gone. Also in the first season of 5d's We saw the 5th dragon the one that looked like Power tool but then, when Greiger told the legend about Scarred nova, We see BW dragon.

It isn't sure the difference of 5000 years between BlackFeather Dragon and the Fifth Dragon is an incoherence, maybe it will be explained later in the anime.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

The original canon/the Egyptians/the sources of the original manga that we were reading about just didn't know about where it was elsewhere. How would they? They... were in Egypt. Of course they'd think they originated there. Plus, the other canons didn't exist when it was an issue. But then more canon came, more information/history was discovered, and that was that. It was added.

You can try to explain it away all you want, but that doesn't change the fact it's an inconsistency. It is a truth that refutes or disproves an already understood truth previously stated. If I say that I'm the last of my race, and then turn around and say that I had a brother that went away on a journey but now came back. That's an inconsistency. The story told us one thing, only for it to change its mind several episodes down the line.

It was added, and then created an inconsistency with its addition. That's what happened. It's not about if the Egyptians knew they were the only ones using ka to play games of darkness. The WRITERS wrote an inconsistency within the story. Period.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

You can try to explain it away all you want, but that doesn't change the fact it's an inconsistency. It is a truth that refutes or disproves an already understood truth previously stated. If I say that I'm the last of my race, and then turn around and say that I had a brother that went away on a journey but now came back. That's an inconsistency. The story told us one thing, only for it to change its mind several episodes down the line.

It was added, and then created an inconsistency with its addition. That's what happened. It's not about if the Egyptians knew they were the only ones using ka to play games of darkness. The WRITERS wrote an inconsistency within the story. Period.

The definition of contradiction, a synonym for inconsistency, as found in a dictionary:

2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something

Which is exactly what Makoeyes and I are trying to say. Sevencrows, Unless you're going to argue with a definition, just admit that it's an inconsistency.

Fine, it's "inconsistent", but how do you expect it to be? What did you think would happen when they wanted to continue the series after DM? SOMETHING had to happen, and that's common sense. YGO is great about putting monsters together with real history, and that's been consistent, even if it makes one thing slightly "inconsistent", that ultimately doesn't change or mean anything and I really don't see the big deal in making other cultures having had monsters around before/during the same time as the Egyptians.

Unless the entire series and every one after took the direction the GX manga is taking, yeah, it's going to happen. This kind of retconish thing happens all the time, jeez guys.

Quite frankly, it may be inconsistent, but in regards to what's been added with each new series, it's also something else: evolution. And it's all for the better, thus far, and I'm sure through the end of 5D's and with the fourth and even fifth series after that, it will continue.

Originally Posted by Ike_Gawain

Crow supposedly got his BW when he was In satisfaction, but then we find that his friend, Pearson gave them to him After Team satisfaction was gone. Also in the first season of 5d's We saw the 5th dragon the one that looked like Power tool but then, when Greiger told the legend about Scarred nova, We see BW dragon.

We've already discussed the Scar Red Nova thing, and it was never said that he got his Black Feathers from Pearson, just Blackbird and Black Feather Dragon. He had Black Feathers before that, and it's never been stated that Black Feathers are one-of-a-kind, special monsters. It's completely possible they both used them, like how Edo supposedly had a whole E-Hero deck back in GX we never saw before he shifted more to D-Heroes or how there have been multiple EXODIA users running around, among other things. It's completely possible he took some of Pearson's with him, but he's used many Pearson didn't have and been gaining more as the series went on; ones Pearson never WILL have. I'd say he used them before he met Pearson, especially since that whole event probably took place during the time he left Satisfaction but before the Kiryu incident.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

Fine, it's "inconsistent", but how do you expect it to be? What did you think would happen when they wanted to continue the series after DM? SOMETHING had to happen, and that's common sense. YGO is great about putting monsters together with real history, and that's been consistent, even if it makes one thing slightly "inconsistent", that ultimately doesn't change or mean anything and I really don't see the big deal in making other cultures having had monsters around before/during the same time as the Egyptians.

Unless the entire series and every one after took the direction the GX manga is taking, yeah, it's going to happen. This kind of retconish thing happens all the time, jeez guys.

Quite frankly, it may be inconsistent, but in regards to what's been added with each new series, it's also something else: evolution. And it's all for the better, thus far, and I'm sure through the end of 5D's and with the fourth and even fifth series after that, it will continue.

The problem isn't THAT they change things; it's the number of things they change. They basically change anything that hasn't been talked about in awhile.

We've already discussed the Scar Red Nova thing, and it was never said that he got his Black Feathers from Pearson, just Blackbird and Black Feather Dragon. He had Black Feathers before that, and it's never been stated that Black Feathers are one-of-a-kind, special monsters. It's completely possible they both used them, like how Edo supposedly had a whole E-Hero deck back in GX we never saw before he shifted more to D-Heroes or how there have been multiple EXODIA users running around, among other things. It's completely possible he took some of Pearson's with him, but he's used many Pearson didn't have and been gaining more as the series went on; ones Pearson never WILL have. I'd say he used them before he met Pearson, especially since that whole event probably took place during the time he left Satisfaction but before the Kiryu incident.

That does make sense, I'll give you that. But it raises another issue; didn't Pearson not have the money to make a D-Wheel, yet somehow he had one to give Crow? Huh?

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

The problem isn't THAT they change things; it's the number of things they change. They basically change anything that hasn't been talked about in awhile.

... But they don't change things, they add to them. Yeah, that may make something else not as true, like Egypt may not have been first, but that doesn't CHANGE the fact that Egypt still had them.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

That does make sense, I'll give you that. But it raises another issue; didn't Pearson not have the money to make a D-Wheel, yet somehow he had one to give Crow? Huh?

He... made it out of parts that were around Satellite - that was the reason Bolger killed him, because he wanted to show the kids of Satellite that they could do something if they tried with the power of Satellite and blah blah blah instead of relying on the city's money. Did you not watch the episodes? Plus, how do you think Yusei built his D-Wheels? He doesn't exactly have money.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

He... made it out of parts that were around Satellite - that was the reason Bolger killed him, because he wanted to show the kids of Satellite that they could do something if they tried with the power of Satellite and blah blah blah instead of relying on the city's money. Did you not watch the episodes? Plus, how do you think Yusei built his D-Wheels? He doesn't exactly have money.

I did watch the episode. That's not why Bolger killed him; he killed him for refusing the money because he thought Pearson was being selfish (to further his own research career). Bolger also mentioned in that episode that they had no money for research and so couldn't do anything further; that includes build a D-Wheel. If it had been as simple as "throw parts together", then that would never have happened.

I would add my theory that BFD was MIA 5K years ago, but I am sure Sevencrows brought the idea up as well. If he hasn't, I will be glad to say it.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

... But they don't change things, they add to them. Yeah, that may make something else not as true, like Egypt may not have been first, but that doesn't CHANGE the fact that Egypt still had them.

The origins of the card game going from the representation of one's soul that was sealed into tablets to be used by the pharoah's priests to protect the kingdom (the exception being the god's, who were, well, gods) is way to different from a dimension of duel monsters that the cards are doors to to be a mere addition, and that's just the contradiction within Duel Monsters. Who had them first isn't the issue (still annoys me, to be honest) but the way the anime insists on using the Duel Monsters worlds over and over, which is a huge contradiction to the established canon and is something that EVERY OTHER CARD GAME ANIME USES. It destroys YGO's uniqueness.

Which made it so popular and something a lot more than a coro coro manga base anime in the first place.
I guess that monster worlds thing is one of the big issues Takahashi wanted to avoid. For that he made it to have more sense and close to the real world. The other one was to have a shonen anime that does not have fist fights as the main battle method.

Originally Posted by DARKMASTER

Which made it so popular and something a lot more of a coro coro manga base anime in the first place.
I guess that monster worlds thing is one of the big issues Takahashi wanted to avoid. For that he made it to have more sense and close to the real world. The other one was to have a shonen anime that does not have fist fights as the main battle method.

I really think Takahashi wanted his manga to be shonen and not a kiddy Corocoro type thing. He wanted it to be dark, mind**** type games. At least, that is what I think.

He originally wanted to make a horror manga so....

Thats what I meant(post fixed). But not 100% sure about the dark mindfu*ck/horror part, cuz it wasn't that dark. Or maybe it was just that its a card game distracted from it.

After all one of the main ideas was also friendship BUT not to the degree of a kiddie anime/manga aka coro coro stuff.

In conclusion. The filler/spin-off writers did EXACTLY the opposite.
Well maybe excluding the first season and some of S2 of 5D's.

Basically they had no idea what story to make and just went with the cliche.
Since these writers when with what they see with out giving it a second though. And that is that YGO! is just a card game commercial so why not use a so obvious cliche like that in the coro coro animes. With that logic what they did, for them the end result it would not seem to be out of place.
Despite all these extra hidden info and references that made the original so awesome. Despite all that research on the references and real life connections. That and many other cliches they used ruined a lot of the original awesomenss.

Originally Posted by JACK_ATLUS

He originally wanted to make a horror manga so....

I guess money got to him. The money wasn't in horror manga. It was in shonen manga about cards.

Originally Posted by cohenmarioman

I guess money got to him. The money wasn't in horror manga. It was in shonen manga about cards.

Capitalism; it can happen to you too.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

Capitalism; it can happen to you too.

NO worries, the other alternative is not going to work at all. it was tried and failed in less than 60 years.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

I did watch the episode. That's not why Bolger killed him; he killed him for refusing the money because he thought Pearson was being selfish (to further his own research career). Bolger also mentioned in that episode that they had no money for research and so couldn't do anything further; that includes build a D-Wheel. If it had been as simple as "throw parts together", then that would never have happened.

No no, I was saying that was PEARSON'S reasons for not taking the money and still being able to make a D-Wheel, I wasn't saying anything about Bolger or his motives. And money wasn't really much of an issue in Satellite, so they presumably also would have had to LEAVE Satellite to be able to take it and work with the people offering it, which was probably another reason Pearson refused it.

Originally Posted by JACK_ATLUS

The origins of the card game going from the representation of one's soul that was sealed into tablets to be used by the pharoah's priests to protect the kingdom (the exception being the god's, who were, well, gods) is way to different from a dimension of duel monsters that the cards are doors to to be a mere addition, and that's just the contradiction within Duel Monsters. Who had them first isn't the issue (still annoys me, to be honest) but the way the anime insists on using the Duel Monsters worlds over and over, which is a huge contradiction to the established canon and is something that EVERY OTHER CARD GAME ANIME USES. It destroys YGO's uniqueness.

The way I see it, that hasn't been contradicted at all. All of that is still fact, but at the same time, there were other worlds with the monsters which other cultures harnessed or other monsters around which other cultures worshipped (the Crimson Dragon and the recent reveal of its "true identity" being a big one here). It just hasn't been touched on and, most likely, won't BE touched on anymore, but that doesn't make it not true. The Egyptians are long gone, and the other stuff sources may not have used monsters in the same way they did - BUT the Egyptians... still did it in that way. And over and over? Unless it was in DM more than I remember, 5D's seems to have one solitary "Spirit World" that, for the moment, isn't even that important except to Ruka, and in GX, the other dimensions also had humans in them and stuff a lot of the time, because they were... y'know, alternate dimensions. Plus, spirits were running around in GX long before the monster world aspect was touched and from what I remember, they had nothing to do with it - they were just... the spirit of that card.

Crimson Dragn? Fine
King of the Underworld? Fine
Signer Dragons being reincarnated by destiny and becoming cards? Fine

The problem lies in the duel monsters world having creatures that look exactly like the the monsters printed on the Duel Monsters cards that are supposed to be based on Egyptian tablets? That's were the contradiction lies. 5D's actually went out of its way to explain why the Signer Dragons could be Duel Monsters cards without shoving more questions on us, unlike the duel spirits and GX which were explained by them living in twelve freaking dimensions. That's just facepalm material right there.

5D's is racing into GX duel world territory and fast though. It was bad enough when Minus World had Moke Moke and Key Maces living in European tuscan villas while Shadowslayers and Unhappy Girls farmed crops outside, but I was rather fascinated how the Crimson Devil's familiar had ancient stone tablets of modern-day trap cards. How in the world did it get a 10,000 year old stone carving recreation of Battle Mania? x.x;

Originally Posted by JACK_ATLUS

The problem lies in the duel monsters world having creatures that look exactly like the the monsters printed on the Duel Monsters cards that are supposed to be based on Egyptian tablets? That's were the contradiction lies. 5D's actually went out of its way to explain why the Signer Dragons could be Duel Monsters cards without shoving more questions on us, unlike the duel spirits and GX which were explained by them living in twelve freaking dimensions. That's just facepalm material right there.

... But what's wrong with that? By that point the cards would have been printed millions of times, and I assume each card has a spirit in it, so regardless of the ones from Egypt, by now there are a lot more around, though some probably stay in their cards most of the time unless they float around for some other reason, like Jerry Beans Man in Johan's flashback in GX, and others are just... native to those other worlds. It was never said there could only be ONE of a monster/spirit, otherwise there would only be one of each and every card, which isn't the case, even with IMPORTANT monsters. There was only one Blue Eyes in Egypt, yet there were at LEAST four in the present day.

Because it contradicts where the card game's origins came from. The cards were based on the manafestations of human souls. They don't live in WTF dimension #11 or soemthing like that. Why are all of these spirits on the cards? How the hell did Black Magician Girl appear in the Duel Monster's world in DOMA? Not to mention the fact that it's so cliche, unexplained, and just way to over the top for Yu-Gi-Oh!, which had always tried it's hardest to keep the fact that their lives are on the line because of a card game as down to earth as possible.

Originally Posted by JACK_ATLUS

Yu-Gi-Oh!, which had always tried it's hardest to keep the fact that their lives are on the line because of a card game as down to earth as possible.

At this point, that's the premise if the series, and part of what I love about 5D's. It's taken seriously in the world it's in, and ultimately, that's all that matters.

I don't really care about DOMA, truthfully, because even I thought that was a little nuts for DM at the time I saw it, but simply put... Yes they do appear in the spirit worlds or the other dimensions or what have you. They've appeared there in GX and in 5D's, and as much as you don't like it, they have. Now, was it explained fully or as much as it should have been? No. But does it... really have to have to be? There is a spirit world. Now from that, I'll come up with something right now: Okay, so each card has a spirit in it, and from the amount of spirits, eventually they had a world or something when they stopped being dueled with or when their cards got destroyed, or alternatively, the spirit world in 5D's could just be one of the 12 Dimensions GX talked about, and is just a lot closer to the main world than the other ten so people like Ruka can kind of get taken there, or at least Ruka, which would make a lot more sense.

It may make a lot of sense but its too much fan explanation instead of writers explanation which are simply missing.
And such cases would not be made if the writers were better or at least explained these plot holes even if in the way you did. BUT they didn't.

When the fans are left to explain all the nonsense(and a lot of times) then what does that say about the writers ?

Yes YGO!'s original manga and even the DM anime was so good and appreciated and became so popular cuz it managed to some point to keep things down to earth. To make it more believable despite that most of its story was based around a card game. When that is lost its just another cliche game anime for little kids.
And since we have that down to earth base when the anime is going in the GX direction. We just get a lot of plot holes contradictions and what not nonsense aka consistent inconsistencies .
And that just makes fans give up on the entire series and even on the entire franchise. Cuz its not anymore what made them like the show/game, but something too much different.

Originally Posted by JACK_ATLUS

Because it contradicts where the card game's origins came from. The cards were based on the manifestations of human souls. They don't live in WTF dimension #11 or something like that. Why are all of these spirits on the cards? How the hell did Black Magician Girl appear in the Duel Monster's world in DOMA? Not to mention the fact that it's so cliche, unexplained, and just way to over the top for Yu-Gi-Oh!, which had always tried it's hardest to keep the fact that their lives are on the line because of a card game as down to earth as possible.

I haven't sen any evidence of down-to-earth, but Jack here seems to understand what I'm saying. It seems everyone but Sevencrows does, actually. Well, that's unfair; he knows what I mean, he just refutes it.

Well, obviously there's stuff like magic, gods, and futuristic holograms, but for the most part, the original story was kept in line with a sense of realism to balance everything and to have life-threatening card games without shattering the suspension of disbelief, as opposed to GX and 5D's, where you have cards that magically appear out of nowhere, dimension hopping, and robots that can teleport by slicing holes in the air.

I think it's because I've yet to finish most of Gx, but I feel like one of my biggest dislikes about the current plot of 5Ds is that it lost the feel it had. During the Dark Signer's arc, the story felt much more like the original Duel monsters, sort of like how Gx did around the 7 stars saga, then 5ds became like Gx and had a bunch of random episodes that really did nothing too major for the plot (sort of like the first 20 or so episodes in GX), then it moves on to the WRGP, which was good at first, even until the Ghost Flood, but once it got all futuristic and people started teleporting and such, it lost the DM feel. I really wish that the show could have stayed with the Yliaster plot, just not had them be crazy robots from space and have god be some weird upside down floating machine guy.

Originally Posted by cashman_11

I think it's because I've yet to finish most of Gx, but I feel like one of my biggest dislikes about the current plot of 5Ds is that it lost the feel it had. During the Dark Signer's arc, the story felt much more like the original Duel monsters, sort of like how Gx did around the 7 stars saga, then 5ds became like Gx and had a bunch of random episodes that really did nothing too major for the plot (sort of like the first 20 or so episodes in GX), then it moves on to the WRGP, which was good at first, even until the Ghost Flood, but once it got all futuristic and people started teleporting and such, it lost the DM feel. I really wish that the show could have stayed with the Yliaster plot, just not had them be crazy robots from space and have god be some weird upside down floating machine guy.

The issue is that the writers need to do something to make the story fresh and unique, but almost everything else has been done. The robots though, with the exception of the scene where Placido burns Bokuru to death, threw that all out the window (I mention that scene because it reminded me of the original shadow games, only with Terminators Kamen Rider Robo Cop).

So, reading these more recent responses, the issue isn't really so much that things are supposedly inconsistent, but they're inconsistent with or "different" than what, in your opinion, makes a good series.

Not really. It's just that the thread has kind of shifted focus, which I think may be my fault, since I tend to gripe a little more than I should about the shift in mood that 5D's took. lol It's hard for me to hold back though, since I just feel so... "betrayed." lol

Haha, I can understand that. As far as 5D's goes, while I do still like it a lot, it definitely does feel (maybe that's where the manga came up with the idea!) like a different series compared to the early portions.

Originally Posted by JACK_ATLUS

Not really. It's just that the thread has kind of shifted focus, which I think may be my fault, since I tend to gripe a little more than I should about the shift in mood that 5D's took. lol It's hard for me to hold back though, since I just feel so... "betrayed." lol

By genmaou

I knew it was a good idea to make this thing.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

Plus, the other canons didn't exist when it was an issue. But then more canon came, more information/history was discovered, and that was that. It was added.

Other canons still don't exist. Now. Today. So it's not an issue. Ever.

More canon doesn't just "come." That's called stupid retconning. And it should be ignored. Which is also a good arguement for why GX, 5D's, R should be ignored. This isn't intended as any insult to anybody, btw.

Just because someone comes along later and redefines all the facts and rules in some show's sequel, doesn't mean that those new facts and rules suddenly retroactively apply to everything that was made before. Almost always, that doesn't make sense. What matters is how the original creators were intending things to be interpreted WHEN THEY MADE THAT PART.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

What did you think would happen when they wanted to continue the series after DM?

I thought bad things would happen. If you ask me, they did.

YGO is great about putting monsters together with real history, and that's been consistent, even if it makes one thing slightly "inconsistent", that ultimately doesn't change or mean anything and I really don't see the big deal in making other cultures having had monsters around before/during the same time as the Egyptians.

Well... It was more about putting the origin of modern games together with real history. But yes, also that the monster cards in Magic & Wizards were based on Egyptian spirit monsters captured from evil men's ka.

Quite frankly, it may be inconsistent, but in regards to what's been added with each new series, it's also something else: evolution. And it's all for the better, thus far, and I'm sure through the end of 5D's and with the fourth and even fifth series after that, it will continue.

I doubt that everyone agrees it's "for the better." Filler usually isn't.

Originally Posted by Lil_Yugi

Who had them first isn't the issue (still annoys me, to be honest) but the way the anime insists on using the Duel Monsters worlds over and over, which is a huge contradiction to the established canon and is something that EVERY OTHER CARD GAME ANIME USES. It destroys YGO's uniqueness.

Yeah, I agree. Even with all the awesome stuff in the DOMA arc it's story made the show very generic.

Originally Posted by DARKMASTER

In conclusion. The filler/spin-off writers did EXACTLY the opposite.

Yeah, that's what bothers people like me about all the YGO spinoffs. The creators took the card game and the universe established by Takahashi and pushed it in the completely opposite direction from what he intended. So that know, YGO really does embody all those generic kids game anime tropes that Takahashi managed to break.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

By that point the cards would have been printed millions of times, and I assume each card has a spirit in it, so regardless of the ones from Egypt, by now there are a lot more around, though some probably stay in their cards most of the time unless they float around for some other reason, like Jerry Beans Man in Johan's flashback in GX, and others are just... native to those other worlds. It was never said there could only be ONE of a monster/spirit, otherwise there would only be one of each and every card, which isn't the case, even with IMPORTANT monsters. There was only one Blue Eyes in Egypt, yet there were at LEAST four in the present day.

Is this something they added in GX or 5D's? Because I don't think you could really argue that in DM "each card has a spirit in it." Sure, Yugi believed in the Heart of the Cards (the idea that a monster card could have a mind of its own and that they're not merely tools of power). But that had more to do with the residual "fighting spirit" imbued in the deck by his grandpa. Even if Yugi seems to value some of his cards like friends, that's not true for every one of his cards. The ones that are more important to him share more of his "fighting spirit."

Only the god cards are said to possess the spirit of the original monster. That's what made them so dangerous.

Originally Posted by Lil_Yugi

Well, obviously there's stuff like magic, gods, and futuristic holograms, but for the most part, the original story was kept in line with a sense of realism to balance everything and to have life-threatening card games without shattering the suspension of disbelief, as opposed to GX and 5D's, where you have cards that magically appear out of nowhere, dimension hopping, and robots that can teleport by slicing holes in the air.

Yeah, there is usually some idea of consistent weirdness. For instance it's perfectly expectable for a new plotline in YGO to involve, "Oh crap! Some dude from Egypt just showed up somehow. And he's controlling us with weird magic powers!" (This happened twice, btw.) But you'd probably have a harder time suspending your disbelief and remaining interested if instead something happened like, "What?! Aliens from another dimension are attacking us?!!" Which is sort of the equivalent of some of these filler arcs. Sure everyone loves YGO because of its unexpected plot twists, but there is a limit to inconsistency.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

So, reading these more recent responses, the issue isn't really so much that things are supposedly inconsistent, but they're inconsistent with or "different" than what, in your opinion, makes a good series.

No. They're different than what has objectively (not our opinion) made the series good and successful in the past. There's now hardly any connection at all with the story's roots, and thus there is not much for the original fans to care about anymore.