Thread: Yuugi and Osiris

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

What do you mean? Kaiba's not anymore "jerkish" than he is in the original manga, barring fillers, since they add in more Kaiba time than there was in the original. I'm not sure why there's this weird conception that Kaiba's this mean bastard who just goes around smack talking like a sailor. He's surly at times but honorable. Except to Jou, cause he can't help but be amused at teasing him. Once he gets the evil out of him, he's a pretty heroic guy.

The fact that at the end of Duellist, he's stopped being a jerk; but by that point in the anime, he still doesn't get it. The whole "I won't believe what's directly in front of my eyes" thing marrs it a little too.

I wouldn't go that far, bro. The manga's pretty damn good. The anime adaption however suffers from a severe case of crap due to filler injection, questionable animation quality, and ridiculous pacing. Its much better read than watched.

Just like Twilight. That way only people who read the books have to know about it. No, wait, Twilight is best burned by throwing it into a boy scout campfire.

Originally Posted by PharaohAtem

Bah, since when do we rely on dub dialogue, of all things, especially in a series like Yugioh with a dub that's somewhat bloodcurdling?

We don't; just pointing it out to show the ridiculous contrast.

[quote]If the manga comes second, usually it isn't as well done as the anime. [quote]

You just proved my point. People like whatever comes first.

You're mistaken, I'm afraid. Duel Monsters ended the same way as in the manga. To be perfectly honest, for any series with which this has happened that I've seen, I would have preferred to see it be put on hiatus until the manga was finished. But the anime adapters do need their money, which is sad. This again brings to mind Soukyuu no Fafner. Instead of possibly squandering the movie by rushing it, they're instead presenting us with this movie, a little unexpectedly, years later. Some of the fans may have long dropped the series, but those who were truly willing to wait for it, like myself, have checked for news on a fairly regular basis.

I was talking about having inserted 2 half-seasons and 1 full-season with no manga basis.

Do you really need to wonder about that? Of course it's the dub's fault. The dub mostly took intelligent lines and turned them into Americanized crap. The biggest casualties of that being Jonouchi and Kaiba. But either way, it's not like Kaiba isn't cold whether or not he *is* somewhat honorable. However, this is definitely true in both medias. The one annoying thing, of course, is that in the anime's final arc, Kaiba needs to be kicked out of the pharaoh's memory world and back to America.

No, not really. He's a jerk in both versions of the anime to an extent, just worse in the dub. As for the Memory World thing... why was he even there in the first place? Oh right; because he has to be in absolutely everything...

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

The fact that at the end of Duellist, he's stopped being a jerk; but by that point in the anime, he still doesn't get it. The whole "I won't believe what's directly in front of my eyes" thing marrs it a little too.

Stopped being a jerk? Now you're just exaggerating. He may have stopped being a full-blown ass-hole, but being a jerk is just part of who Kaiba is. In the manga, Kaiba is like that right up through the end of Battle City, so it's not an anime thing, just a Kaiba thing.

You just proved my point. People like whatever comes first.

That was my point to begin with, that whatever comes first is *naturally* better, because it's the original.

I was talking about having inserted 2 half-seasons and 1 full-season with no manga basis.

Well, you were mentioning different endings and throwing Yugioh into the mix. Thankfully Yugioh at least ended properly and not on one of those stupid filler arcs...

No, not really. He's a jerk in both versions of the anime to an extent, just worse in the dub. As for the Memory World thing... why was he even there in the first place? Oh right; because he has to be in absolutely everything...

It's the dub that makes him sound like an ass-wipe. But being a jerk is just a part of Kaiba's personality. Point being, Kaiba did not magically become a jerk upon becoming an anime character adapted from the manga; he simply always *was* one to begin with in all medias.

Originally Posted by PharaohAtem

Stopped being a jerk? Now you're just exaggerating. He may have stopped being a full-blown ass-hole, but being a jerk is just part of who Kaiba is. In the manga, Kaiba is like that right up through the end of Battle City, so it's not an anime thing, just a Kaiba thing.

If you say so.

That was my point to begin with, that whatever comes first is *naturally* better, because it's the original.

No, it's because it sets the standard for everything subsequent. It isn't just true of anime vs manga; the argument is made with novels vs films, originals vs sequels, and everything else which has multiple adaptations and stages. People want something that is as good as the original.

Well, you were mentioning different endings and throwing Yugioh into the mix. Thankfully Yugioh at least ended properly and not on one of those stupid filler arcs...

I was talking about the idea of tampering with the storyline, which they did by introducing filler cards connected to the storyline.

It's the dub that makes him sound like an ass-wipe. But being a jerk is just a part of Kaiba's personality. Point being, Kaiba did not magically become a jerk upon becoming an anime character adapted from the manga; he simply always *was* one to begin with in all medias.

Yeah he was, but the anime did in fact make it worse.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

If you say so.

Don't patronize me. Also, don't be an idiot. I've read a lot of manga chapters of Yugioh recently, especially from the Battle City arc, so I know better than you what I'm talking about.

No, it's because it sets the standard for everything subsequent. It isn't just true of anime vs manga; the argument is made with novels vs films, originals vs sequels, and everything else which has multiple adaptations and stages. People want something that is as good as the original.

You are still proving my point though: what sets the standard *is* the original, otherwise it wouldn't be considered the standard to live up to.

I was talking about the idea of tampering with the storyline, which they did by introducing filler cards connected to the storyline.

You didn't make that clear in your original comment though, which it made more interesting to mess with you.

Yeah he was, but the anime did in fact make it worse.

Like I said, it wasn't so much the anime as the dub. Any filler material was simply that: filler. To me, filler does not count at all where characterization is involved.

Originally Posted by PharaohAtem

Don't patronize me. Also, don't be an idiot. I've read a lot of manga chapters of Yugioh recently, especially from the Battle City arc, so I know better than you what I'm talking about.

Nobody is patronizing anybody

You are still proving my point though: what sets the standard *is* the original, otherwise it wouldn't be considered the standard to live up to.

Then you and I have the same point, just with slightly different ways of phrasing it.

You didn't make that clear in your original comment though, which it made more interesting to mess with you.

Yes, yes. We've all had our laugh now.

Like I said, it wasn't so much the anime as the dub. Any filler material was simply that: filler. To me, filler does not count at all where characterization is involved.

Remind me again what Kaiba said in the manga in his second duel with Yugi regarding jumping off the castle or something similar (committing suicide), as well as the aftermath of the game.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

Nobody is patronizing anybody

Yes, you were. Pretending otherwise is a lie.

Then you and I have the same point, just with slightly different ways of phrasing it.

With the only difference being that you don't think the original is always best, whereas I do. Just from personal experience, that's the conclusion I've drawn for myself.

Remind me again what Kaiba said in the manga in his second duel with Yugi regarding jumping off the castle or something similar (committing suicide), as well as the aftermath of the game.

I don't remember that specific part, but I remember more clearly the double duel they were having with those mask guys, and Kaiba made a point of being an ass about having to work with Yuugi and being helped by him. I can probably find the chapter from Duelist Kingdom if I check that manga streaming website again though...

Originally Posted by PharaohAtem

Yes, you were. Pretending otherwise is a lie.

I was getting slightly rushed in my response because I really don't wanna play this game again.

With the only difference being that you don't think the original is always best, whereas I do. Just from personal experience, that's the conclusion I've drawn for myself.

My conclusion is more that you have to take in a piece-by-piece basis. A new adaptation could possibly come up with some brilliant new plot twist well worth seeing, or it might not. It's not so clear-cut.

I don't remember that specific part, but I remember more clearly the double duel they were having with those mask guys, and Kaiba made a point of being an ass about having to work with Yuugi and being helped by him. I can probably find the chapter from Duelist Kingdom if I check that manga streaming website again though...

Okay, that's fine. The point I was gonna make was that I didn't think Kaiba yelled at Yugi for failing to kill him there.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

I was getting slightly rushed in my response because I really don't wanna play this game again.

It's not a game, so don't play it.

My conclusion is more that you have to take in a piece-by-piece basis. A new adaptation could possibly come up with some brilliant new plot twist well worth seeing, or it might not. It's not so clear-cut.

I've seen many pieces and pretty much always preferred the original. There are exceptions to all rules, but generally, the rule does follow that the original is the best.

Okay, that's fine. The point I was gonna make was that I didn't think Kaiba yelled at Yugi for failing to kill him there.

I haven't re-read the part yet, but didn't he actually mock and/or insult him, whether or not he yelled?

Originally Posted by PharaohAtem

I've seen many pieces and pretty much always preferred the original. There are exceptions to all rules, but generally, the rule does follow that the original is the best.

I'm about 50/50.

I haven't re-read the part yet, but didn't he actually mock and/or insult him, whether or not he yelled?

Well, I do know that in the anime he was pretty vicious about it.

Originally Posted by PharaohAtem

In fact, those things usually add to the plot in a meaningful way. One of the best examples of that is in the X TV series based on CLAMP's manga. Although it's not as bad as the movie, elements of violence that were removed from the anime took away from the plot.

Yeah, not mentioning they had to make up an ending since none exists in the manga. And then the movie was almost nothing but violence with no story.

If you're ever interested, I have mp3s of the fourth, and rarest, Cassette Book Collection, the one with the audio drama tracks concerning Shuten's backstory.

I'll try to watch Samurai Troopers. I know where I can get it. I don't really have any interest in drama CDs but 80s anime like that usually have pretty awesome soundtracks.

Originally Posted by PharaohAtem

Do you really need to wonder about that? Of course it's the dub's fault. The dub mostly took intelligent lines and turned them into Americanized crap. The biggest casualties of that being Jonouchi and Kaiba. But either way, it's not like Kaiba isn't cold whether or not he *is* somewhat honorable. However, this is definitely true in both medias. The one annoying thing, of course, is that in the anime's final arc, Kaiba needs to be kicked out of the pharaoh's memory world and back to America.

Exactly. I'd say the idea that "Kaiba's a jerk" is a dub-induced misconception. He's focused and selfish and almost cruelly ruthless, but he isn't rude or insulting to anybody but Jounouchi.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

Originally Posted by PharaohAtem

If the manga comes second, usually it isn't as well done as the anime.

You just proved my point. People like whatever comes first.

The thing that came first isn't better BECAUSE it came first. Think of it this way. If the thing that came first wasn't good, THERE WOULD NEVER EVEN BE A SECOND.

Any manga that gets an anime adaptation must have been popular with readers otherwise they wouldn't make an anime. Similarly anime->manga adaptations are only made if an anime is popular. So that in itself proves that the original at least must be pretty good. It does not necessarily mean that the adaptation will not be better or equal to the original, but if you find out a series you didn't like was an adaptation of something else, then you owe it to yourself to give it another chance in its original incarnation.

That's true of pretty much all shonen manga (Yuugiou, Naruto, Dragon Ball, Fullmetal Alchemist, etc...).

Originally Posted by russ869

Yeah, not mentioning they had to make up an ending since none exists in the manga. And then the movie was almost nothing but violence with no story.

I've only heard bad things about the movie and I even prefer the voice actors of the TV series, so I don't dare to watch it and have no real interest in doing so either.

I'll try to watch Samurai Troopers. I know where I can get it. I don't really have any interest in drama CDs but 80s anime like that usually have pretty awesome soundtracks.

You do? Is it a tor-rent? Message me privately about what you found, please. Yeah, the soundtrack is pretty cool. The troopers' themes are all good, even though I dislike Seiji's myself, and some of the Ma Shou's themes are pretty good as well. Even Nasuti (the woman) has a nice, sweet theme. Then there are memorable little upbeat tracks like Rekka Ken Sou En Zan, and deeper music like Kaosu's themes.

Also, perhaps generally speaking, drama CDs are not all that interesting, but those of YST are quite good. Especially Tenkuu Den has bits of humor (and a bit of info about Touma's mother and father), and Suiko Den and Tsuki both have very interesting stories with new characters. In Tsuki we have a youja who controls the moon (and the story focuses on Shuu, taking place between Saranbou and Kenbukyou); in Suiko Den, we have a Ma Shou who controls ice. I think they work the imagination very nicely. Not to mention that all of them have booklets with sketchy images representing some of the key scenes of each drama CD. In the case of Tenkuu Den, there's even sketchy drawings of Touma's father and mother.

Exactly. I'd say the idea that "Kaiba's a jerk" is a dub-induced misconception. He's focused and selfish and almost cruelly ruthless, but he isn't rude or insulting to anybody but Jounouchi.

Not completely dub-induced, no. But the dub does exaggerate his bad traits and make him nearly completely unlikable.

The thing that came first isn't better BECAUSE it came first. Think of it this way. If the thing that came first wasn't good, THERE WOULD NEVER EVEN BE A SECOND.

Let me put it this way: the thing that came first is better because it is the original, and thereby is better because it was first. There is a thing with most people that when they've seen one version, they're usually biased towards that version. That's where this comes from. And generally speaking, when people have seen the original first, any adaptation is lacking because something has been changed, and usually not for the better. For me, at least, being a perfectionist where such things are concerned, I am a very strict judge and don't really forgive some details that others might.

Any manga that gets an anime adaptation must have been popular with readers otherwise they wouldn't make an anime. Similarly anime->manga adaptations are only made if an anime is popular. So that in itself proves that the original at least must be pretty good. It does not necessarily mean that the adaptation will not be better or equal to the original, but if you find out a series you didn't like was an adaptation of something else, then you owe it to yourself to give it another chance in its original incarnation.

Usually the manga following an anime series is not all that serious, from what I've seen. Or it tends to vary in the extreme and therefore not be considered official by fans. This is the case with the YST manga. A manga following an anime generally doesn't get as much attention as an anime following a manga, since not only is there less publicity for a manga, by default, but also there is much less to be excited about an animated feature being made into still frames. I love the X manga, for instance, but I would love even more if there was ever a fully faithful anime adaptation of the entirety of it, including all the blood and gore. More importantly, including the minor but very important characters like Kamui's new friend Keiichi.

That's true of pretty much all shonen manga (Yuugiou, Naruto, Dragon Ball, Fullmetal Alchemist, etc...).

I always try the original of anything, if I can, and usually I do find it better even if I myself didn't see it first. Case in point: the D.Gray-Man manga. But the one that actually came first was the manga even though I didn't see it first. So it does hold true that the original is generally better because it was first.

Originally Posted by PharaohAtem

Let me put it this way: the thing that came first is better because it is the original, and thereby is better because it was first. There is a thing with most people that when they've seen one version, they're usually biased towards that version. That's where this comes from.

Originally Posted by PharaohAtem

Case in point: the D.Gray-Man manga. But the one that actually came first was the manga even though I didn't see it first. So it does hold true that the original is generally better because it was first.

I was trying to be a little more objective than that. Obviously, some people will tend to like what they saw first more. Others will tend to like what actually was made first more. All I was saying is that if no one ever liked the original than the adaptation wouldn't have even been made. (I know... "Duh!" right?)