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Thread: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

  1. Default Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Since we've had posts and threads (and links to LJs) on symbolism and Easter Eggs in GX and 5D's, perhaps DM deserves a chance to get a bit of fun organized analysis.

    I suppose we can point out stuff like Zombire being Spawn, the Hankerchief panels by BoBoBo's creator, but also I'd like to look at use of more enigmatic things, like the use of Enochian on Dartz's cards and the Seal of Orichalcos.

    Name Analysis, Outfit/Character Design Analysis, Alchemical Symbolism, Decks, and yes, even the use of Egyptian Motifs. Everything. Anything. It's all welcome here.

    If you have anything to add, go right ahead. That goes ditto for questions.

    Resources:
    http://arynis.livejournal.com/24577.html

    Also, I would like to note:
    I would prefer this thread to not be used as an (indirect) bashing platform for the Spinoffs. Posts and comments trying to go in that direction will be reported. So can we try and be polite adults and have some fun with some over-analyzing?

    Thanks.

    (Thanks goes to Arynis for helping to start up this post.)

    Open, Bermuda Gate!

    #duelacademy_r2 on LJ & irc.darkmyst.org!

    Looking for new players to play Yu-Gi-Oh! Canon Characters or Original Characters.


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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    I don't have much to add for the time being, as I still need to read the books I purchased in the recent times. Not to mention I haven't worked out every single detail yet. But here's what I managed to connect together, so far. Expect a lot of stuff mish-mashed together.

    Name Analyses

    Name Analysis: Pegasus J. Crawford

    Pegasus

    Let's kick this off with the etymology of the word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich's Pegopedia
    Pegasus (Pegasos) in Greek Mythology is the winged steed that caused Hippocrene, the fountain of the Muses on Mt. Helicon, to well forth with a stroke of his hoof. Pegasus can literally mean "Fountain Horse, " as his name is possibly derived from 'springs of the Ocean' (pegai) or 'of the wells,' is a variant of the Greek word pege which means "spring" or "fountain" and the form sus or "soos" is pre-Greek in origin, means "bridled horse" referring to the figurehead of a ship. The Denderah Zodiac (Egyptian) there are two characters immediately below the horse, Pe and Ka. Peka or Pega, is in Hebrew "the chief, " and Sus is "horse". Thus, the very name (Pegasus) has been preserved. Pegasus seems to have been regarded, in ancient times, as the sky emblem of a ship. In the work the Des frudion of Troye, it tells of a ship built by Perseus, and named Pegasus, in the likeness of a winged horse.
    Obviously comes from the mythological Pegasus, the white winged horse. The creature was born from Medusa's severed neck, with its blood splattered mane. Another version is Pegasus coming forth from seafoam and Medusa's blood. Pegasus' red suit could be a possible nod to this. Pegasus is the son of Medusa and Poseidon, the former who actually died. Could this be a reason we never saw Pegasus' mother, only his father? I'm not suggesting she's dead, there's just no mention of her. Or this could be one of Takahashi's "absent parents" thing. On which note, there's Pegasus' card, Gorgon's Eye, which is another nod to his name. (And in the anime only, there's a Pegasus decoration on one of the doors.)

    Pegasus was also Zeus' lightning-bearer, which could be a nod to Pegasus resurrecting the Gods, the only person being able to reach them despite not being tied to Ancient Egypt. (Sans the Eye.) Going by the anime, his tale also reflects Bellerophon's, ironically - he wanted to control all three Gods with his Millennium Eye, but with Pegasus' only role being the game's creation, the Gods disobeyed him and blasted him in the face. (Thankfully, he made it out of it without becoming a cripple.)

    One site mentions that Pegasus is an elusive creature which is rarely seen by humans. This fits with Pegasus rarely being seen by the public, such as Sugoroku mentioning how he has never seen his face before. Then there's Duelist Kingdom, this private island which can't be found unless you're told where to go. It could possibly fit with his rich man persona as well, considering how such people are somewhat separated from society.

    There's also the "Pegasus Syndrome" to be mentioned:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich's Pegopedia
    The Pegasus Syndrome, as exemplified in the legends of Perseus and Bellerophon, is concerned with the innate ability possessed by some people to negotiate difficulties by rising above them, on the one hand, and the danger of overreaching themselves, on the other. Pegasus, by birth, is the child of Medusa and Neptune, symbols of 'wisdom' and 'emotion,' respectively, which shows the dichotomy of his nature. As in the story, Bellerophon attempted to fly to Olympus (overreach his potential). He believed that Pegasus was subject to his will. However, it was Pegasus who made it to Olympus, while Bellerophon was tossed back to earth, lame and reproached by others. It is unwise to take any situation for granted as the 'lesser' person (or, in this case, beast) may be the very one to teach us the much-needed lesson in humility. Pegasus is also indicative of a specific mission in life which the inquirer will always find the time and energy to pursue, although the path may be sewn with difficulties (the Chimaera) and limitations (Bellerophon's doubt or arrogance). So, the Pegasus Syndrome is the seeming ability to "fly over any situation," though the reverse may be a lesson in humility, being "taken down a peg," as it were. (See: Medusa, Poseidon).
    I will speak on the nature part in just a bit, but first, the Pegasus Syndrome. Pegasus struggled with a tough plan, which was to meet Cyndia again. His path was limited and difficult, with his only way to achieve said plan is to take over Kaiba Corporation (limitation) and to defeat Yugi (difficulty). Just setting up Duelist Kingdom was a complicated plan. And Pegasus looked down on Yugi, the "lesser" person in this case. He thought of himself as an unbeatable ruler who never makes mistakes. Yet, Yugi came out victorious in the end.

    Also, Rich's Pegopedia breaks down the Pegasus symbolism in the following way:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich's Pegopedia
    The Horse is a potent symbol from almost every world religion and mythology. Many of its myths express the horse's innate clairvoyance and ability to perceive the magic within humans. Some view the horse as the symbol of strength, virility and lust. According to popular belief it loses its sexual powers when its mane is cut, and is the only animal that shows sorrow because it weeps for its dead master (though this is later belief is not exclusive to the Horse-Human relationship). Also, it is a symbol for loyalty and devotion, such as the faith it has with it's master. It also represents the warrior spirit, bravery and courage. Strength & Sexual Energy
    Pegasus himself was a very devoted man, who was willing to fulfill his promise with Cyndia at all costs. One could argue he had courage when he went to undertake the Eye's test, despite knowing that he might be burned to death the next moment. (Well, it's not like he had a choice in the matter, but...) As for the mane cutting, it may explain Pegasus' wonderful and amazing hair, but take it as you will. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich's Pegopedia
    Wings are a symbol that denotes "flight" and often represent prayer and contemplation, especially in the sense of feathered bird-like wings. A spiritual or religious symbol they represent the soul's ability to transcend the weight of earthly burdens and rise above such concerns into the air, even to Heaven itself, to the presence of God. In Christian symbolism, through demonization, there are also the accursed wings of such infernal creatures as vampires, basilisks, dragons and others. These are the leathery wings of skin, like those of a bat, whose appearance adds to the attributes of evil inherent in the beast. "Skin" being a symbol of the carnal nature of man, therefore sinful, is connected to the to the idea of the perversion of the intellectual faculties toward evil purposes. Azrael, the Angel of Death, is often depicted with leathery wings, (i.e., the satyr-like devil, Satan [the former Angel of Light, Lucifer] the Destroyer). These are the typical wings of the Hellhorse or the Chimaera. Transcendence & Liberty.
    Not much to add here. Could be interpreted as Pegasus getting to the Egyptian Gods as an ordinary human (as in, no connections to Egypt sans the Eye), or how he was regarded as a God of Duelist Kingdom, an undisputed ruler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich's Pegopedia
    The Winged Horse or Pegasus symbolizes heightened power of the natural forces - the innate capacity for spiritualization and for inverting evil into good. As a Christian and religious symbol, Pegasus was adopted from the attribution as the mount of Apollo, the God of pure light, beauty and truth to be included in the symbolic fauna of Christ. Winged horses, in general, symbolize the transport of the soul of the deceased Christian to Heaven, and figuratively, like Apollo the Sun-god, represents Christ lifted up and, like the sun, 'Full of Glory,' and as the Revealer of Mysteries and the causer of refreshing (as in the passage: "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength, they shall mount up with wings as eagles..." - Isaiah 40:31). Also, during the Apocalypse, Pegasus has been compared to the "white horse," which the conqueror rides in the book of Revelation in the Bible. Aside from being a general symbol of creative inspiration and poetry, the flying horse is an expression for speed, power and swift transport. As an animal totem, Pegasus symbolizes the immortality of the soul, and serves as the carrier and protector of the spirit in its journeys to the astral plane (especially to the Moon - the emotional plane). Pegasus is closely linked to the Greek gods Poseidon (Neptunus) [emotion], his father; Athena (Minerva) [heavenly wisdom], his protectress; Zeus (Jupiter) [guidance & creativity] as his Thunder-bearer; and the Muse Urania [heavenly love], his nursemaid, and the Muses [inspiration, memory and the arts] in general; the heroes Perseus [intellect] and Bellerophon [impudence]; and the monsters Medusa [mortal wisdom] and Chimaera [complex evil]. Creative Inspiration & Benevolent Transformation, Communication & Transportation.
    Pegasus may not be someone who think of when one hears of "inverting evil into good", but stop and think for a second. Dark Yugi was someone who had a twisted view of justice upon his reawakening. While he meant well (protecting Yugi and his friends), his methods were often... brutal, so to speak. He wanted to give a Penalty Game to Pegasus as well, a man he swore he would never forgive, yet he refrained from doing so in the end. Dark Yugi started thinking about himself once he heard Pegasus' story. Wondered about the Items, too. He changed that day. The "Revealer of Mysteries" title is also fitting for Pegasus.

    One fun thing is how the Pegasus is a symbol for poetry, yet Pegasus himself is an artist. The inspiration part still fits, naturally. The "immortality of the soul" part could be interpreted as how Pegasus would forever "live on" in his card game, if R is any indication. And, heh heh. Moon. That deserves an elaboration of its own later on.

    Let's observe the Pegasus' link to the Greek Gods:

    Emotion: Goes without saying that Pegasus is a fairly emotional person.
    Heavenly Wisdom: Knowledge of the Millennium Items, his knowledge of Duel Monsters, and the God Cards' creation.
    Guidance and Creativity: His love for children, his mentoring of them in R, and his creativity as an artist.
    Heavenly Love: Cyndia. Goes without saying. (Urania also showed the biggest interest in Pegasus' rearing, and Pegasus' love for Cyndia is an important part of his character.)
    Inspiration, Memory and the Arts: He's an artist.
    Intellect: He's pretty clever and has showed he can think logically. (See some of his smaller speeches to Yugi during their second duel.)
    Impudence: I'm not quite sure about this one. Could his snark count as such?
    Mortal Wisdom: Again, not sure, but could his sophistication fit under this?
    Complex Evil: He was a cruel bastard during Duelist Kingdom, no doubt.

    And finally, to tie into my next name analysis when I'm done with Pegasus' full name:

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth Man's Pegasus Homework Help
    Ancient astrologers believed that all the stars of Pegasus protected horsemen in battle. In the so-called Lost Zodiac, those persons born between March 13 and April 1 are said to be born under the sign of Pegasus. Because of horseshoes the hoof-marks which horses leave behind look like crescent moons, horses in Greece were sacred to the Moon, which, as it lights up the darkness of the night, governs the world of imagination, instinct and intuition to which the horse also belongs. The moon was also thought to be the source of all moisture, and it was believed to be the moon-shaped hooves of Pegasus, that, when they struck the flowering earth, had caused the Muses' fountain of poetic inspiration to start flowing. The moonlit realm of the imagination, of visions, dreams and intuition, is where those born under the sign of the winged stallion, Pegasus, feel most confident and at home.
    The Pegasus is closely tied to the Moon. Like I mentioned, this will be important later.

    Also, the above text could be used to explain the names of Yako Tenma (天馬夜行 Tenma Yakou - Heaven | Horse | Night | Travel) and Gekko Tenma (天馬月行 Tenma Gekkou - Heaven | Horse | Moon | Travel). To note, 行 kou can mean "epic", according to Jisho.org. Pfft. Also, Tenma together mean "Heaven horse", which is a character similar to Pegasus in Eastern Mythology.

    And with that, Pegasus should be finally done with. Huhu. I guess that could show that Takahashi may have intended to use this name as a special meaning rather than just going for something that sounded cool.

    Random fun trivia for the end: There's an old cartoon called Luno, The Flying Horse which features a Pegasus.

    J.

    Why yes, it's Pegasus' mysterious middle initial. Not Jay, not James, not Julius, or whatever I have heard for his middle name during my stay in the fandom. Just plain ol' J.

    I came across this on TV Tropes, but it could be possible that Pegasus' middle name was a homage to cartoon characters like Elmer J. Fudd and Michigan J. Frog. With Pegasus' Toon deck being a homage to American cartoons, this could be very well fitting.

    Crawford

    This one's interesting and tricky. I'll start off with the meaning:

    Quote Originally Posted by About.com
    Definition: Derived from the Gaelic "cru" meaning bloody , and "ford" meaning 'pass or crossing,' the CRAWFORD surname is believed by most to mean a crossing of blood. Believed to be first assumed by the proprietor of the lands and barony of Crawford, in Lanarkshire, Scotland. A possible similar derivation comes from "crawe" meaning 'crow' and "ford" meaning 'pass or crossing.'
    Quote Originally Posted by Ancestor Search (searchforancestors.com)
    (Origin Scottish Locality)

    First assumed by the proprietor of the lands and barony of Crawford, in Lanarkshire, Scotland. The extreme ancestor of the ancient family of Crawford, in Scotland, was Reginald, youngest son of Alan, the fourth Earl of Richmond. He seems to have accompanied David the First to the north, and to have received extensive grants of land in Strath Cluyd, or Clydesdale, whence his immediate descendants adopted the name of Crawford, then forming one of the largest baronies in Scotland, and signifying in Gaelic "The pass of blood," from cru, bloody, and ford, a pass or way, as commemorative, probably, of some sanguinary conflict between the Aborigines and the Roman invaders. The name has been derived by others from crodh and port, pronounced cro-fort, signifying "a sheltering place for cattle."
    "Bloody" is covered right off the bat, with the connection to the Pegasus' birth. Bloody and "pass/way/crossing" could signify how Pegasus' life was one with a great sacrifice; he was forced to give up on living a happy life with the one he loved, and instead subjected to destiny as the puppet who would tie everything together, the final, accidental piece of the chessboard. (Because I can't seem to work with it if it's written as "The pass of blood"/"Crossing of blood". Bwuh.)

    However, note the possible "crow" meaning in there. So I went to look up on crow symbolism:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://mara-gamiel.blogspot.com/2007/07/crow-symbolism.html
    The crow's strong symbolism has long existed in people's minds. It's blackness suggests the night, darkness and mystery, but because it is a creature of the air it also comes to symbolise creativity and divine inspiration (the air being inseparable from sky and heaven and a belief in higher powers). Given that, it's easy to see why the old Celtic bards could regard the crow as a kind of muse figure. In the crow we find this Yin-Yang-like juxtaposition of forces: light in darkness, and darkness in light.
    Again, similar motifs pop up again. Pegasus was regarded as a mysterious man, and creativity and divine inspiration has been covered already.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://mara-gamiel.blogspot.com/2007/07/crow-symbolism.html
    Partly due to their association with Celtic fertility and war goddesses, and with what Christianised folk regarded as unwholesome paganism or witchcraft, crows and ravens gained an unsavoury reputation. Then they especially became omens of death or ill fortune.

    Various indigenous North American peoples have regarded the crow as a great civiliser-- the harbinger of positive creative forces. But, he could also be a trickster. The crow's wicked intelligence could be used to aid the needy, or it could be used to chastise the wrong-headed.
    Let's face it, Pegasus isn't the luckiest person on the Earth. He loses his childhood love (and possibly only friend), goes through an unpleasant test with the Millennium Eye with the possibility of dying right there, getting brainwashed into creating the game, breaking down after creating the God cards, his plan failing during Duelist Kingdom, and ultimately dying at the hands of Bakura. While the last part may be seen as a good thing, one could argue that his anime counterpart has it much worse with what he goes through in the anime continuity. In Reshef of Destruction, too.

    Pegasus may not be seen as a Trickster person, but he's quite clever with manipulating people. Forcing Yugi to come to Duelist Kingdom, forcing Kaiba to fight Yugi, and later on, making Kaiba duel against him the way he wants (i.e., not with the Duel Disk prototypes). In GX, he wonderfully made Napoleon and Chronos jump on each other so he could win the duel swiftly.

    Oh, and one last thing regarding Pegasus' name in general. Yes, he does share the amount of letters in his name with Magic: The Gathering's creator, Richard Garfield. Both contain 15 letters.

    That covers Pegasus' name in full.

    Name Analysis: Cyndia

    Yes, that character. Believe it or not, I have a quite a few thing to say about this beauty, despite her incredibly brief appearance.

    Now, this name is a fairly rare name variant of Cynthia. Here's the meaning of Cynthia:

    Quote Originally Posted by thinkbabynames.com
    Cynthia \cy(n)-thia\ is pronounced SIN-thee-ah. It is of Greek origin, and the meaning of Cynthia is "from Mount Kynthos". Mythology: Kynthia was one of the names of Artemis, the goddess of the moon, referring to her birthplace on Mount Kynthos. Cynthia was later used by the Roman poet Propertius in his love poetry. The English given name was not used in the Middle Ages, but was revived in the 17th and 18th centuries. Cyntia is a Spanish form. Cindy is its nickname. Many of the diminutives are also variants of Lucinda. Ballerina Cynthia Gregory; actress Cynthia Nixon.
    And that's how we get to the gist of things: Cynthia is one of the Greek Goddess Artemis' Epithets, because of her birth on Mount Kynthos. We'll work from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theoi.com
    ARTEMIS was the great Olympian goddess of hunting, wilderness and wild animals. She was also a goddess of childbirth, and the protectress of the girl child up to the age of marriage. Her twin brother Apollon was similarly the protector of the boy child. Together the two gods were also bringers of sudden death and disease--Artemis targetted women and girls, and Apollon men and boys.

    In ancient art Artemis was usually depicted as a girl dressed in a short knee-length chiton and equipped with a hunting bow and quiver of arrows.

    [...]

    Artemis was the goddess who brought sudden death to infants, girls and women, for she was not only the protector of girls, but also by contrast their destroyer.
    While we don't know if it was sudden or not, but she definitely died of an illness. (My personal headcanon is that she died in a fairly short time, but that's just me.)

    And regarding the importance of Pegasus' ties to the Moon, this is where it comes in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theoi.com
    When Apollo was regarded as identical with the sun or Helios, nothing was more natural than that his sister should be regarded as Selene or the moon, and accordingly the Greek Artemis is, at least in later times, the goddess of the moon. Buttmann and Hermann consider this idea of Artemis being the moon as the fundamental one from which all the others are derived. But, at any rate, the idea of Artemis being the goddess of the moon, must be confined to Artemis the sister of Apollo, and is not applicable to the Arcadian, Taurian, or Ephesian Artemis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoi.com
    The identification of Selene with Artemis was a late invention, perhaps coinciding with the introduction of the Thracian goddess Bendis into Greece. Bendis was a foreign goddess presiding over the moon, magic and wild animals (for the Greeks an apparent merging of their three goddesses Selene-Hekate-Artemis).
    Artemis is the Goddess of the Moon (or at least, she is associated with Selene). While the Pegasus itself is not tied to Artemis at all, the closest it got to her was being Apollo's occasional mount. Though, Selenian Steeds were Selene's winged mares, who were the offspring of Pegasus and Euippe.

    Though, from the Moon we could go to Queen Luna in Alchemy (while oddly connecting Pegasus to King Sol), but I still need to work that out. So. Disregard this for the time being.

    On an odd note, I have noticed some of the machine translators translating Cyndia's name as "Shin Deer". (Because her name is written in katakana, and ディア dia is well, deer. Or dear.) Deers are one of the sacred animals for Artemis. Probably unintentional, but it's an odd fun thing.

    Egyptian Stuff

    I'll start off with what I have written in a few visitor messages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Me in Visitor Messages
    "And my book about Egypt's symbolical thinking has arrived! I'm still reading the Alchemy book, though. There are some cool things in there, like how according to the Book of the Dead, Atum said how he will destroy everything he created, and then he shall turn into a snake so he will be hidden from Gods and men alike. It's kind of amusing, considering how Atem sealed himself and Zork (and the Dark Priest) away in order to end the Games of Darkness. While said magic wasn't created by him, he was the one to shoulder what Aknadin brought into creation and after his father atoned for what happened. And he didn't really turn into a snake either, but Zork did have a snake appendage, with which he was with now, so..."

    "Another interesting thing is how Osiris represents alchemy and its processes, the Sun setting and rising again... Now, look at Osiris on the Memory Tablet. It almost looks like the Ouroboros (albeit it's not quite biting its tail, but almost), which represents cyclicality, which is what the representation was supposed to get at. At least it makes up for why Osiris looks like a serpentine dragon, or it could be an interesting coincidence. (Though, Obelisk is supposed to be a monument rather than the big bulky dude, no?)"
    I still need to read those books, though. ~.~ I will note anything worth of interest.

    Also, Takahashi has done a very close research on Egyptian Magic, as I noted in a different thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Arynis View Post
    After... getting my hands on lots of Alchemy books (and related stuff), I came across a book on Egyptian magic, titled appropriately as Egyptian Magic, written by E. A. Wallis Budge, 1901. The following is one part of the preface. Parts especially relevant to the series are bolded. (Not putting the quotation in quote code because that makes it a pain to read in my opinion.)

    "Egyptian magic dates from the time when the predynastic and prehistoric dwellers in Egypt believed that the earth, and the underworld, and the air, and the sky were peopled with countless beings, visible and invisible, which were held to be friendly or unfriendly to man according as the operations of nature, which they were supposed to direct, were favourable or unfavourable to him. In -nature and attributes these beings were thought by primitive man to closely resemble himself and to possess all human passions, and emotions, and weaknesses, and defects; and the chief object of magic was to give man the pre-eminence over such beings. The favour of the beings who were placable and friendly to man might be obtained by means of gifts and offerings, but the cessation of hostilities on the part of those that were implacable and unfriendly could only be obtained by wheedling, and cajolery, and flattery, or by making use of an amulet, or secret name, or magical formula, or figure, or picture which had the effect of bringing to the aid of the mortal who possessed it the power of a being that was mightier than the foe who threatened to do evil to him. The magic of most early nations aimed at causing the transference of power from a supernatural being to man, whereby he was to be enabled to obtain superhuman results and to become for a time as mighty as the original possessor of the power; but the object of Egyptian magic was to endow man with the means of compelling both friendly and hostile powers, nay, at a later time, even God Himself, to do what he wished, whether the were willing or not. The belief in magic, the word being used in its best sense, is older in Egypt than the belief in God, and it is certain that a very large number of the Egyptian religious ceremonies, which were performed in later times as an integral part of a highly spiritual worship, had their origin in superstitious customs which date from a period when God, under any name or in any form, was unconceived in the minds of the Egyptians. Indeed it is probable that even the use of the sign which represents an axe, and which stands the hieroglyphic character both for God and "god," indicates that this weapon and tool was employed in the performance of some ceremony connected with religious magic in prehistoric, or at any rate in predynastic times, when it in some mysterious way symbolized the presence of a supreme Power. But be this as it may, it is quite certain that magic and religion developed and flourished side by side in Egypt throughout all periods of her history, and that any investigation which we may make of the one necessarily includes an examination of the other."
    • We know the people of Egypt in Yu-Gi-Oh! believed that evil spirits lived in the hearts of men, which they sealed in tablets upon obtaining the Millennium Items.
    • Said monsters reflected their owners.
    • The amulet would be the Millennium Items here, the secret name could be Atem's name, which caused Horakhti to be summoned. Magical formula could be the magic in general, like how the story was passed down as "Magicians who used monsters to fight each other". The novelization of Pyramid of Light also describes Pegasus deciphering the magic words found in the images of the monsters. The picture obviously refers to the tablets, and pictures are also shown to have important in the modern game as well.
    • Atem did control the Egyptian Gods, and Simon summoned Exodia.

    And well, that's just the preface. There could be much more to it, but I thought I'd stop by and share this. And the book itself is like 100 pages long.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arynis View Post
    Anyway, more Egyptian Magic geekery. Again, bolded the relevant parts. (I wonder if I should spoiler tag the text to save space... Eh, I'll do it. )

    "From the religious books of ancient Egypt we learn that the power possessed by a priest or man
    who was skilled in the knowledge and working of magic was believed to be almost boundless.

    By pronouncing certain words or names of power in the proper manner and in the proper tone
    of voice he could heal the sick, and cast out the evil spirits which caused pain and suffering in
    those who were diseased, and restore the dead to life, and bestow upon the dead man the power
    to transform the corruptible into an incorruptible body, wherein the soul might live to all
    eternity. His words enabled human beings to assume divers forms at will, and to project their
    souls into animals and other creatures; and in obedience to his commands, inanimate figures
    and pictures became living beings and things which hastened to perform his behests. The
    powers of nature acknowledged his might, and wind and rain,
    p. xi
    storm and tempest, river and sea, and disease and death worked evil and ruin upon his foes, and
    upon the enemies of those who were provided with the knowledge of the words which he had
    wrested from the gods of heaven, and earth, and the underworld. Inanimate nature likewise
    obeyed such words of power, and even the world itself came into existence through the
    utterance of a word by Thoth; by their means the earth could be rent asunder, and the waters
    forsaking their nature could be piled up in a heap, and even the sun's course in the heavens
    could be stayed by a word. No god, or spirit, or devil, or fiend, could resist words of power, and
    the Egyptians invoked their aid in the smallest as well as in the greatest events of their lives. To
    him that was versed in the lore contained in the books of the "double house of life" the future
    was as well known as the past, and neither time nor distance could limit the operations of his
    power; the mysteries of life and death were laid bare before him, and he could draw aside the
    veil which hid the secrets of fate and destiny from the knowledge of ordinary mortals.
    Now if views such as these concerning the magician's power were held by the educated folk of
    ancient Egypt
    there is little to wonder at when we find that beliefs and superstitions of the most
    degraded character flourished with rank luxuriance among the peasants
    p. xii
    and working classes of that country, who failed to understand the symbolism of the elaborate
    ceremonies which were performed in the temples, and who were too ignorant to distinguish the
    spiritual conceptions which lay at their root--to meet the religious needs of such people the
    magician, and in later times the priest, found it necessary to provide pageants and ceremonies
    which appealed chiefly to the senses, and following their example, unscrupulous but clever men
    took advantage of the ignorance of the general public and pretended to knowledge of the
    supernatural, and laid claim to the possession of power over gods, and spirits, and demons.
    Such false knowledge and power they sold for money, and for purposes of gain the so-called
    magician was ready to further any sordid transaction or wicked scheme which his dupe wished
    to carry out. This magic degenerated into sorcery, and demonology, and wit craft, and those
    who dealt in it were regarded as associates of the Devil, and servants of the powers of darkness,
    and workers of the "black art." In the "white" and "black" magic of the Egyptians most of the
    magic known in the other countries of the world may be found; it is impossible yet to say
    exactly how much the beliefs and religious systems of other nations were influenced by them,
    but there is no, doubt that certain views and religious ideas of many heathen and
    p. xiii
    Christian sects may be traced directly to them. Many interesting proofs might be adduced in
    support of this statement, but the limits of this book will not admit of their being given here."
    • We know that the Priests who held the Millennium Items had the most power. People whose Ka were sufficiently trained also proved to be powerful. (Ie. Aknadin training people underground to strengthen their Ka.)
    • I believe most of the Millennium Item and monster spirit fiasco was known by the Pharaoh and the Pirests only, and well, Thief King Bakura because he witnessed the massacre at Kul Elna. Though, didn't Shada and Seto went to take trips to look for people with a strong Ka? Although I still don't think it was common knowledge...
    • It was told that the Millennium Tome holds the secrets of possessing the power over gods, spirits and demons.
    • The White and Black magic was bought up in the card game as well, a small chart is bought up during the first Yugi vs. Pegasus duels. There are four types of magic users: Illusionists, White Magic, Black Magic, Demons and Devils. Or it could be yet another nod to RPGs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arynis View Post
    More Egyptian Magic comparisons. Again, bolded relevant parts as usual.

    The "magic" of the Egyptians was of two kinds: (1) that which was employed for legitimate
    purposes and with the idea of benefiting either the living or the dead, and (2) that which was
    made use of in the furtherance of nefarious plots and schemes and was intended to bring
    calamities upon those against whom it was directed.
    In the religious texts and works we see
    how magic is made to be the handmaiden of religion, and how it appears in certain passages
    side by side with the most exalted spiritual conceptions; and there can be no doubt that the chief
    object of magical books and ceremonies was to benefit those who had by some means attained
    sufficient knowledge to make use of them. But the Egyptians were unfortunate enough not to be
    understood by many of the strangers who found their way into their country, and as a result
    wrong and exaggerated ideas of their religion were circulated among the surrounding nations,
    and the magical ceremonies which were performed at their funerals were represented by the
    ignorant either as silly acts of superstition or as tricks of the "black" art. But whereas the magic
    of every other nation of the ancient East was directed entirely against the powers of darkness,
    and was

    p. 4
    invented in order to frustrate their fell designs by invoking a class of benevolent beings to their
    aid, the Egyptians aimed being able to command their gods to work for them, and to compel
    them to appear at their desire.
    These great results were to be obtained by the use of certain
    words which, to be efficacious, must be uttered in a proper tone of voice by a duly qualified
    man; such words might be written upon some substance, papyrus, precious stones, and the like,
    and worn on the person, when their effect could be transmitted to any distance.
    As almost every
    man, woman, and child in Egypt who could afford it wore some such charm or talisman, it is
    not to be wondered at that the Egyptians were at a very early period regarded as a nation of
    magicians and sorcerers. Hebrew, and Greek, and Roman writers referred to them as experts in
    the occult sciences, and as the possessors of powers which could, according to circumstances,
    be employed to do either good or harm to man.
    • Basically what the monster spirits were used for. Though, they were used mostly for war and protection, see using the summoned monsters to deal with the invaders of Egypt. Also, note how the text says that strangers looked down on the Egyptians' practices, perhaps that is why they wanted to obtain the Millennium Tome, to destroy it, maybe?
    • Again, the writing speaks of the importance and power of words, it would explain why Atem's name may have been removed from the Tablet on which it was inscribed.

    Though, if anyone wants to read the book themselves I'm quoting from (this is basically a better idea), it can be found here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ema/index.htm
    I also need to observe that text more closely, too. Most of these quotations were pulled from the Preface.

    Episode Analysis

    And for now, I will conclude my post with a brief episode analysis. (Though, I have not thought this through completely, I will likely elaborate on it sometime.)

    I am going to bring up one of the most unlikely episodes - Episode 028. You know, that one filler episode with all the Mind Screw. But in fact, at least one scene in this episode makes more sense than people may think.

    http://pics.livejournal.com/arynis/pic/0003fpqr (Click the link to see the image.)

    The scene in question begins with this pan image, which can be overlooked pretty easily. Osiris can be recognized right off the bat, then there's Hathor decipted as a cow. I suppose the one next to Osiris is Isis, but it could be Isis-Hathor, considering she's holding the sistrum rattle. (I also considered Iusaaset.)

    (Many thanks to Heleentje to helping me pin down the deities. Especially Isis(-Hathor).)

    Osiris is fairly straightforward. He's the God of the Underworld, associated with death and rebirth. Cyclicality. Just like how I mentioned in that visitor message of mine.

    Hathor personifies the principles of love, beauty, music, motherhood and joy. She welcomes the dead into the next life, and is also considered a friend of the dead. Hathor was also identified with women.

    Isis, among other things, is the goddess of magic. She would also listen to the prayers of wealthy people and aristocrats. The symbol of Isis is the tyet/tiet, which represents the idea of eternal life or resurrection. She is also the protector of the dead.

    And finally, because I'd like to mention it anyway, Iusaeset. She's described as the grandmother of all deities, but she's also associated with the acacia tree, the Tree of Life.

    So how do they fit in this scene? Osiris for death and rebirth, Hathor for women and Isis for magic (and possibly prayers). Seeing how Cyndia is involved, these deities seem pretty appropriate.

    The scene switches to Pegasus playing the ancient form of Duel Monsters with a man in robes, while several other men are chanting in the room. Another notable part of the room is Cyndia's portrait.

    http://pics.livejournal.com/arynis/pic/0003bs8t (Again, click to see image.)

    There's a Winged Sun Disk below her portrait. I had a tough time tracking down the exact symbolism, but it can be a symbol of protection, a symbol of the eternal soul, a symbol of Ra, the form of Horus Behudety... Then there's also the Winged Sun in Alchemy to consider. Bwuh. Will look more into it / anyone who might know something on winged sun disks, let me know?

    Anyway. I believe this scene might be the "replacement" for the scene in the manga where Pegasus changes to the Game of Darkness during the duel with Yugi, and goes on to explain how he created Duel Monsters after he went to Egypt, as well as what he learned of its origins (Book of Thoth, etc.). Pegasus goes on to briefly explain Anzu, Honda and Bakura the origins of the Games of Darkness, albeit not in such detail.

    And now, look at the deities I listed above. Osiris is obvious, because Cyndia is dead. Although Pegasus just wants to create a lifelike Solid Vision image of her rather than actually resurrect her (this might work better with dub!Pegasus). Hathor is there because the dead person here is a deceased lady. Isis is because of Pegasus' Millennium Eye. Pegasus is also a rich man, whose wish is to see her again.

    In overall, this scene signifies Pegasus' ties to the game's creation, its origins and dark magic, and how his goal is related to Cyndia. Alternately, how Cyndia herself is connected to Pegasus' creation of the game, considering it was her death which was the catalyst for the modern day events.

    So yeah. Yu-Gi-Oh! fillers. Horribly out there but they make sense. (Sometimes not.)

    ... Aaaaand that concludes my gigantic post for the time being.



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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Arynis won the thread. XD

    I'm afraid I won't be quoting that big post just to find the one, small thing I want to add postulation on. But anyway, in regard to what you said about Atem's name being scratched off due to the power of words, could it not also be due to the Egyptian practice of conserving resources? What I mean is, I've read that the Egyptians believed strongly in names being one of the five parts of the soul. Those names which were preserved would allow for that person to exist for all eternity. Alternatively, if one erased the names of enemies of the state from every place in which it is written, his memory would be powerless.

    But, this practice had a double standard. Sometimes Egyptians would overwrite the names of previous rulers and important people with the names of current people on monuments and the like simply to conserve time and resources that would have to go into making new monuments.

    Of course, Atem's name wasn't overwritten, just weathered away. Whether by natural or human means is the question.



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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Arynis, you're the best! Congratulations!

    Tobi, you're right! I recently read something about this topic but I don't remember where.

    It's exact but the contrary is possible: the erasing of existences of Pharaohs in History is already happened. Tutankhamun is the most famous example of this. He shares somes similarities with Atem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Egypt for Universities
    Tutankhamun, King of the 18th Dynasty. He came to the throne as a boy, and ruled ten years: it is not known what caused his death at around 16 or 17 years of age. He has been the most famous Pharaoh in modern times since the discovery of his almost intact tomb in 1922. For ancient Egyptian history his reign he is important for the reinstallation of the Egyptian gods after the Amarna period.
    Like Atem, his tomb had been discovered intact in the XXth Century. The age of the death of the Pharaoh is very debated but the Historians are agreed on 16-17 years. Knowing Atem has at least 15 years like stated in the manga, the age between these two Pharaohs is similar.

    But, Tutankhamun father’s actions leading his successors to erase the references to the Kings of Amarna’s period:

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Egypt from Universities
    The persecution of the Amarna period kings seems to have started under Horemheb, who had the Aten temples dismantled, though the names of Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Tutankhamun seem not to have been systematically erased before the Nineteenth Dynasty. Little original building activity is attested for the reign.

    Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV), King of the 18th Dynasty, He worshipped the sun god under the name 'disk' (Egyptian: Aten) and had this depicted as a disk with rays ending in hands.
    Indeed, the Pharaoh Akhenaten decided to abandonate the traditional religion and create a worship focused on Aten. His son started to restaure the old gods, like his successors but finally, Akhenaten, Neferneferuaten, Smenkhkare, Tutankhamun, and Ay were systematically erased from the official lists of Pharaohs, like said here by Hoemheb, Ay’s successor as the Pharaoh of the Nineteen Dynasty. Their names and all reference to them were deleted and erased.

    We know Atem’s name had been completely erased from his cartouche. We don’t know about his family itself but the destiny given to Atem’s name and the Tutankhamun family's names are identicals. Of course, the reason to erase Atem's name was very different. Atem didn’t had the time to reign a lot of time, so his name hadn’t got the time to be written on a lot of places or monuments and If he had been, he must have been erased as the Pharaohs of the Eighteen Dynasty.

    Here the links:

    http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/ch.../akhnaton.html
    http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/ch.../haremhab.html
    http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/ch.../akhnaton.html

    I'm sorry, I don't success to insert them like usual.
    Last edited by Allana; 10/29/10 at 02:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Arynis, I hope you don't mind, but I'll be quoting you from the Zork thread. I think this thread would be appropriate to argue the misconception of alchemy's Egyptian roots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arynis View Post
    I think it was mentioned that the Millennium Tome has been with Egypt for several generations, which is the reason Egypt has been invaded. It is never said where it came from, but it contains the "Alchemy of Darkness".

    Although, historically speaking, it is not possible that the book could contain Alchemy at the time (1000 BC in the series), considering that the first references to true Alchemy appeared during the Greco-Roman Egypt, during 3rd-4th Century AD. The fact that Alchemy is brought up here may come from the misconception that Alchemy originated in Ancient Egypt.

    A book I am currently reading tried to look for connections between Ancient Egypt and Alchemy (mostly referring to chemical experimentations done in temples), but said part of the book has been challenged and criticized, due to the lack of concrete evidence on the Ancient Egyptian origins of Alchemy in general. The critic noted that the book could be interpreted as a possible speculation on the Ancient Egyptian origins of Alchemy, or an in-depth look at Alchemy's Egyptian-Greek origins, though.

    But. I'm wondering if Takahashi may have gone with the Hermes Trismegistus route. The deity is the syncretic combination of Hermes and Thoth, whose name comes from the Hellenistic Alexandria. He's regarded as the ancestor father of Alchemy. He worked on several works which covered Alchemy among other things. Depending on whose opinion one takes, the amount of books he wrote ranges from 42 to 36525. The most famous ones are the Corpus Hermeticum and the Emerald Tablet, which you may have heard Amnael merrily quoting in GX. Anyway. The core of the many legends surrounding H. T. come from the fact that Curing/Medicine and Metallurgy were taught in Ancient Egyptian priest schools as Esoteric Science, and their supposed source was Divine Inspiration.

    Buuuuuuut I don't know too much on Hermes Trismegistus. I had to check a few of my books just to pull out the above paragraph.

    Well, Levity.com does list Alchemy coming from Ancient Egypt as a common misconception, which is pretty much the Alchemy website. There are several sites saying different things on the subject, but I'm going with Levity on this.
    Personally, I think Takahashi playing off the misconception could be intentional. Even if what we've discovered in history claims the first true reference to alchemy arose from Greco-Roman Egypt, you never know if maybe even that had inspiration from an earlier source. A great thing, history, when you can twist it for the sake of fiction in such a way where the audience can only accept it as being plausible.



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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Uh. I wanted to reply to this thread quite a while ago, but school pulled me down somewhat. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi View Post
    Arynis won the thread. XD

    I'm afraid I won't be quoting that big post just to find the one, small thing I want to add postulation on. But anyway, in regard to what you said about Atem's name being scratched off due to the power of words, could it not also be due to the Egyptian practice of conserving resources? What I mean is, I've read that the Egyptians believed strongly in names being one of the five parts of the soul. Those names which were preserved would allow for that person to exist for all eternity. Alternatively, if one erased the names of enemies of the state from every place in which it is written, his memory would be powerless.

    But, this practice had a double standard. Sometimes Egyptians would overwrite the names of previous rulers and important people with the names of current people on monuments and the like simply to conserve time and resources that would have to go into making new monuments.

    Of course, Atem's name wasn't overwritten, just weathered away. Whether by natural or human means is the question.
    Haha, thanks. XD

    Hmm, that's interesting! I didn't know Egyptians did such a practice. But yeah, names and words were regarded as highly important.

    Indeed, it is. I remember a fan doujinshi by a friend of Horoko's, in which she explained the whole name thing with Shimon himself destroying Atem's name, so the Games of Darkness would be indeed sealed away. If I recall correctly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Allana View Post
    Arynis, you're the best! Congratulations!

    Tobi, you're right! I recently read something about this topic but I don't remember where.

    It's exact but the contrary is possible: the erasing of existences of Pharaohs in History is already happened. Tutankhamun is the most famous example of this. He shares somes similarities with Atem.

    [snip for length]

    We know Atem’s name had been completely erased from his cartouche. We don’t know about his family itself but the destiny given to Atem’s name and the Tutankhamun family's names are identicals. Of course, the reason to erase Atem's name was very different. Atem didn’t had the time to reign a lot of time, so his name hadn’t got the time to be written on a lot of places or monuments and If he had been, he must have been erased as the Pharaohs of the Eighteen Dynasty.

    Here the links:

    http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/ch.../akhnaton.html
    http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/ch.../haremhab.html
    http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/ch.../akhnaton.html

    I'm sorry, I don't success to insert them like usual.
    Oh wow. That's certainly interesting, Allana!

    Hmm. I'm wondering if Atem's name may have been destroyed because of his involvement with the Games of Darkness? But it's weird, in a way - wouldn't sealing Zork away make him a hero, someone who would be celebrated? Instead, he's forgotten for thousands of years until Yugi solves the Puzzle.

    But like Tobi said, we don't know if his name was destroyed by natural and human means. Though, if it were natural means, wouldn't other parts of the tablet would be gone as well? From what I can recall, only his name was erased, with most of the tablet being intact.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi View Post
    Arynis, I hope you don't mind, but I'll be quoting you from the Zork thread. I think this thread would be appropriate to argue the misconception of alchemy's Egyptian roots.

    Personally, I think Takahashi playing off the misconception could be intentional. Even if what we've discovered in history claims the first true reference to alchemy arose from Greco-Roman Egypt, you never know if maybe even that had inspiration from an earlier source. A great thing, history, when you can twist it for the sake of fiction in such a way where the audience can only accept it as being plausible.
    I have been thinking of doing that shortly after I posted, but you already did it. Thanks Tobi!

    Yeah, that is certainly true what you are saying. Hence the critic saying how the book I'm reading could be a possible speculation on Alchemy's Egyptian-Greek origins. It's not impossible, just that there are little evidence for it.

    That particular bit just bugged me after seeing how well Takahashi did his research on Egypt and Egyptian mythology, "only" to get the Alchemy part "wrong". (Again, depending on who you turn to on the subject, I suppose.)

    Also, repping you both for your posts.



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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by Arynis View Post
    Uh. I wanted to reply to this thread quite a while ago, but school pulled me down somewhat. Sorry.

    No problem!

    Hmm, that's interesting! I didn't know Egyptians did such a practice. But yeah, names and words were regarded as highly important.

    Indeed, it is. I remember a fan doujinshi by a friend of Horoko's, in which she explained the whole name thing with Shimon himself destroying Atem's name, so the Games of Darkness would be indeed sealed away. If I recall correctly.[/FONT]
    When It had been published? It was a analysis post or only speculation? In the manga, he isn't seen destroying Atem's name himself and he is killed when Zork destroyed Exodia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arynis
    Oh wow. That's certainly interesting, Allana!

    Hmm. I'm wondering if Atem's name may have been destroyed because of his involvement with the Games of Darkness? But it's weird, in a way - wouldn't sealing Zork away make him a hero, someone who would be celebrated? Instead, he's forgotten for thousands of years until Yugi solves the Puzzle.

    But like Tobi said, we don't know if his name was destroyed by natural and human means. Though, if it were natural means, wouldn't other parts of the tablet would be gone as well? From what I can recall, only his name was erased, with most of the tablet being intact.

    I think It's the reason. Atem is a hero because he sealed away the evil. But there always a risk than someone release Zork again. In the manga, Atem, before to leave the Memory World, gives the puzzle to Seto and he is seen wearing the puzzle with the new priests when he start his reign.

    I think Atem's cartouche had been erased intentionally. Because like you said, If It was natural, the entire tablet would have affected.

    I guess It's Seto who erased it: him and Mana are the sole survivors among the person who had seen directly the events and Seto own the puzzle as Pharaoh. Perhaps at the end of his reign he decided to break the puzzle, seal it in Atem's tomb because the next Pharaoh, who never lived these events, could believe It isn't true, this is invented story. In GX 40, the Pharaoh who lived after Seto's reign, don't own the Puzzle even If he know the Duel Monsters. Knowing only the Pharaoh can own the Puzzle, perhaps must be already sealed in Atem's tomb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arynis
    I have been thinking of doing that shortly after I posted, but you already did it. Thanks Tobi!

    Yeah, that is certainly true what you are saying. Hence the critic saying how the book I'm reading could be a possible speculation on Alchemy's Egyptian-Greek origins. It's not impossible, just that there are little evidence for it.

    That particular bit just bugged me after seeing how well Takahashi did his research on Egypt and Egyptian mythology, "only" to get the Alchemy part "wrong". (Again, depending on who you turn to on the subject, I suppose.)

    Also, repping you both for your posts.

    Perhaps It is intentional because It fits better to the story itself? Takahashi lead research on Egypt so I guess he had also did reaseach in Alchemy. Why do reseach in Egypt and Egyptian Mythology and not in Alchemy? Or perhaps he read a source who affirm it? We don't know what sources he used anyway.

    Thanks a lot Arynis!

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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by Arynis View Post
    Indeed, it is. I remember a fan doujinshi by a friend of Horoko's, in which she explained the whole name thing with Shimon himself destroying Atem's name, so the Games of Darkness would be indeed sealed away. If I recall correctly.
    Yes, I read that fan doujin too. It really did make you think, and I honestly would've accepted the explanation as canon. XD

    Hmm. I'm wondering if Atem's name may have been destroyed because of his involvement with the Games of Darkness? But it's weird, in a way - wouldn't sealing Zork away make him a hero, someone who would be celebrated? Instead, he's forgotten for thousands of years until Yugi solves the Puzzle.

    But like Tobi said, we don't know if his name was destroyed by natural and human means. Though, if it were natural means, wouldn't other parts of the tablet would be gone as well? From what I can recall, only his name was erased, with most of the tablet being intact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Allana View Post
    I think It's the reason. Atem is a hero because he sealed away the evil. But there always a risk than someone release Zork again. In the manga, Atem, before to leave the Memory World, gives the puzzle to Seto and he is seen wearing the puzzle with the new priests when he start his reign.

    I think Atem's cartouche had been erased intentionally. Because like you said, If It was natural, the entire tablet would have affected.

    I guess It's Seto who erased it: him and Mana are the sole survivors among the person who had seen directly the events and Seto own the puzzle as Pharaoh. Perhaps at the end of his reign he decided to break the puzzle, seal it in Atem's tomb because the next Pharaoh, who never lived these events, could believe It isn't true, this is invented story. In GX 40, the Pharaoh who lived after Seto's reign, don't own the Puzzle even If he know the Duel Monsters. Knowing only the Pharaoh can own the Puzzle, perhaps must be already sealed in Atem's tomb.
    It may not seem plausible to just erase Atem's name because he's a hero, but what of politics? What if a pharaoh that appeared later down the line, even after Seto, felt Atem to be an enemy or simply wanted to erase the names of kings of previous dynasties? Or, what could be more likely, as Atem didn't rule for relatively long, what if an enemy of Atem's father erased Atem's name in an attempt to erase his father's lineage from history?

    EDIT: Another consideration is what really happened after Atem sealed himself. We assume Seto became pharaoh because that's what we saw in the Millennium World. But if you think about, Seto only became pharaoh after Atem passed that title onto him in that world, which could not have happened in the true course of history (because Atem had sealed himself). Although the events of the Millennium World are based on the events that truly occurred millennia before, they are completely exclusive from those events. (Hence how it could end with the demise of Zorc Necrophades and how Atem could be alive to choose a successor.)

    So what kind of chaos would be caused by the disappearance of a king without a successor? A lot. Even if one of the priests had taken over, we don't know how they might've ruled or if they even took the throne by force. Like, I recall Takahashi had wanted to expand on Seto rebelling against Pharaoh Atem. Unfortunately he could not expand on that, but what if Seto's rebellion succeeded after Atem sealed himself? It would be easy for him to take the throne then and it most certainly would make sense to erase Atem's name from all monuments, because Atem would be his enemy.

    We assume Seto was Atem's friend because of the anime, but in the manga, with what we're able to see of him, he and the pharaoh actually didn't get along very well.
    Last edited by Tobi; 11/10/10 at 03:10 AM.



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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi View Post
    It may not seem plausible to just erase Atem's name because he's a hero, but what of politics? What if a pharaoh that appeared later down the line, even after Seto, felt Atem to be an enemy or simply wanted to erase the names of kings of previous dynasties? Or, what could be more likely, as Atem didn't rule for relatively long, what if an enemy of Atem's father erased Atem's name in an attempt to erase his father's lineage from history?
    When I said the reason, I talking about the Game of Darkness. This is possible, It make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi
    EDIT: Another consideration is what really happened after Atem sealed himself. We assume Seto became pharaoh because that's what we saw in the Millennium World. But if you think about, Seto only became pharaoh after Atem passed that title onto him in that world, which could not have happened in the true course of history (because Atem had sealed himself). Although the events of the Millennium World are based on the events that truly occurred millennia before, they are completely exclusive from those events. (Hence how it could end with the demise of Zorc Necrophades and how Atem could be alive to choose a successor.)

    So what kind of chaos would be caused by the disappearance of a king without a successor? A lot. Even if one of the priests had taken over, we don't know how they might've ruled or if they even took the throne by force. Like, I recall Takahashi had wanted to expand on Seto rebelling against Pharaoh Atem. Unfortunately he could not expand on that, but what if Seto's rebellion succeeded after Atem sealed himself? It would be easy for him to take the throne then and it most certainly would make sense to erase Atem's name from all monuments, because Atem would be his enemy.

    We assume Seto was Atem's friend because of the anime, but in the manga, with what we're able to see of him, he and the pharaoh actually didn't get along very well.
    In the manga, Akhnadin mentions he did a wishes to the Eye when he got it, which is Seto become a Pharaoh. Knowing originally the objects are created according a Tome, I guess the condition to earn the Eye must be written inside it. In the manga, Shadi said to Pegasus to do a wishes before to give him the Eye in order to see If the Eye will choose him. That's why It is possible Seto become Pharaoh without Atem stay alive: the Eye realize the wishes of his owner. Akhnadin is died of course but It stay possible. It seems each time someone want to be the owner of the Eye, It must do a wishes. Pegasus's wishes was immediat but not the one of Akhnadin because of the order succession to become Pharaoh: Seto wasn't the son of Pharaoh himself.

    When he leaves the Millenium World, Atem see a last picture to Seto and the new priest with the Millenium objets and the tablet above them. That's mean he created the tablet immediatly after the events. If Seto or another successor had erased Atem's name on the tablet, why he hasn't destroyed the tablet entierely? It was more simple and no proves of Atem's existence as well Duel Monsters would have survived. Destroy the entire tablet would have been a real proof of hate for the previouw Pharaoh. The tablet was already known when Atem's tomb had been discovered because Pegasus saw it.

    Yes, Takahashi wanted to expand Seto's rebellion against Atem because Kisara's death. Indeed, he could easily take the power by force. I don't think him and Atem are completly enemies. They aren't the best friends of the world but they aren't the completly ennemies neither. They have respect to each other.

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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by Allana View Post
    In the manga, Akhnadin mentions he did a wishes to the Eye when he got it, which is Seto become a Pharaoh. Knowing originally the objects are created according a Tome, I guess the condition to earn the Eye must be written inside it. In the manga, Shadi said to Pegasus to do a wishes before to give him the Eye in order to see If the Eye will choose him. That's why It is possible Seto become Pharaoh without Atem stay alive: the Eye realize the wishes of his owner. Akhnadin is died of course but It stay possible. It seems each time someone want to be the owner of the Eye, It must do a wishes. Pegasus's wishes was immediat but not the one of Akhnadin because of the order succession to become Pharaoh: Seto wasn't the son of Pharaoh himself.

    When he leaves the Millenium World, Atem see a last picture to Seto and the new priest with the Millenium objets and the tablet above them. That's mean he created the tablet immediatly after the events. If Seto or another successor had erased Atem's name on the tablet, why he hasn't destroyed the tablet entierely? It was more simple and no proves of Atem's existence as well Duel Monsters would have survived. Destroy the entire tablet would have been a real proof of hate for the previouw Pharaoh. The tablet was already known when Atem's tomb had been discovered because Pegasus saw it.
    No, it wasn't that you need to make a wish on the Eye in order to receive it. It's that receiving the Eye can make one of your wishes come true. Just like how Yugi was told that if he solved the Millennium Puzzle, it would grant him a wish. And as for the wishes given unto the Eye, while it can be said that they came true, they obviously came with an equal price of despair for the wisher (although that's just me going off on a tangent).

    But okay, that is fair enough to say that Seto did become pharaoh if we assume that in actual history, Akhenaden's wish on the Eye came true.

    Now, this panning of the tablet of memories and Pharaoh Seto, are you referring to the manga or the anime? Then again, I just said that the events of the Millennium World are exclusive of actual history. It doesn't matter what happened in the Millennium World, the events of the history were already done. (Although I guess the Millennium Items could still show Atem what really happened after his death.)

    Also, as far as the practice goes in erasing names, they did not destroy the monuments, just the names. We must remember that compared to the anime, in the original manga, the tablet had no supernatural power to it. All it did was depict the battle between Seto and Atem. The Shadow RPG took place in a back room of the museum after Bakura abducted everyone's unconscious bodies (from using the Millennium Key to gain access to the Millennium Puzzle). So destroying the tablet or not is a moot point; erasing the name was satisfactory enough.

    But I still want to rebuttal your question with another one: If Seto created the tablet and had no ill will towards Atem, why would he or anyone in his council erase Atem's name? That wouldn't seal the power of the Games (especially with the Millennium Items still dispersed among the pharaoh and his priests), that would only make it harder to combat Zorc. If anything, Atem's name needed to remain preserved so Atem could defeat Zorc. (Remember, it was Bakura who didn't want anyone finding Atem's name as that would be Zorc's downfall in the RPG.)

    Yes, Takahashi wanted to expand Seto's rebellion against Atem because Kisara's death. Indeed, he could easily take the power by force. I don't think him and Atem are completly enemies. They aren't the best friends of the world but they aren't the completly ennemies neither. They have respect to each other.
    It depends, though, on how Seto viewed Atem after Kisara's death. If Takahashi was planning on adding a subplot of Seto rebelling against Atem because of her death, then clearly something would've had to happen that would make Seto blame Atem and make him an enemy. (Even if that something was just Akhenaden pulling strings in the background.)



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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi View Post
    No, it wasn't that you need to make a wish on the Eye in order to receive it. It's that receiving the Eye can make one of your wishes come true. Just like how Yugi was told that if he solved the Millennium Puzzle, it would grant him a wish. And as for the wishes given unto the Eye, while it can be said that they came true, they obviously came with an equal price of despair for the wisher (although that's just me going off on a tangent).

    But okay, that is fair enough to say that Seto did become pharaoh if we assume that in actual history, Akhenaden's wish on the Eye came true.
    Alright. I thought It was just before you take it according Shadi's and Akhnadin's words and Yugi doing his wishes before to have finished to resolve the puzzle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi
    Now, this panning of the tablet of memories and Pharaoh Seto, are you referring to the manga or the anime? Then again, I just said that the events of the Millennium World are exclusive of actual history. It doesn't matter what happened in the Millennium World, the events of the history were already done. (Although I guess the Millennium Items could still show Atem what really happened after his death.)
    I was referring only to the manga. You meant all events? Until Yugi and co. arrives, the events in the Millenium World aren't the same than the ones happening 3000 years ago, like for example Bakura coming in the palace with Atem's father sarcophage?

    You mean the Puzzle show to Atem the events after he sealed himsefl inside it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi
    Also, as far as the practice goes in erasing names, they did not destroy the monuments, just the names. We must remember that compared to the anime, in the original manga, the tablet had no supernatural power to it. All it did was depict the battle between Seto and Atem. The Shadow RPG took place in a back room of the museum after Bakura abducted everyone's unconscious bodies (from using the Millennium Key to gain access to the Millennium Puzzle). So destroying the tablet or not is a moot point; erasing the name was satisfactory enough.
    I read in severals sources the monuments of Armana's period had been destroyed par Tutankhamun's successor to erase the monuments the dynasty had built in order to do like If the traditionnals cults had always existed without interruption. I read that Ay had worked to restaure ancients cults as Tutankhamun had started and that Horemheb would have stated to destroy monuments linked to Tutankhamun.

    I know Archeology has a lot evolved these last years so It it possible the books aren't at the top of the archeological research. If you know others sources, I'm interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi
    But I still want to rebuttal your question with another one: If Seto created the tablet and had no ill will towards Atem, why would he or anyone in his council erase Atem's name? That wouldn't seal the power of the Games (especially with the Millennium Items still dispersed among the pharaoh and his priests), that would only make it harder to combat Zorc. If anything, Atem's name needed to remain preserved so Atem could defeat Zorc. (Remember, it was Bakura who didn't want anyone finding Atem's name as that would be Zorc's downfall in the RPG.)
    Perhaps to there definitively no chance that Zork neither Atem can revives again, It is possible It was a definitive way to prevent It happens, in broking and sealing the Puzzle? Perhaps they refuses that even the chosen one success to assemble it by this possibility that even him don't success to destroy Zork? They didn't know when the next chosen will appears and perhaps they scared he fell because even the Pharaoh with the Gods at his side hadn't success

    I guess the legend must stay famous during the years after they were happened. In erasing the name of the Pharaoh, It is impossible to know when they are happened. I mean, In knowing only the name of the Pharaoh, you can search dates, periods, monuments... in rapport with him. You can also create litterature, poems... The legend is known, stay present in people's minds. It's one of the ways to pass on the story accross the time. In erasing the name of the Pharaoh and all It can refers to Atem's reign, you can't do that. If you tell the story to someone but you can't give a date or a proof this event is hapenned, there a chance It is considered as a myth or a legend tell in the population by others person who comes from another place. The legend of the Game of Darkness was known by egyptians who come with Sugoroku in the tomb only because the last words of the sole survivor of the English expedition who tried before them was "The Game of Darkness". A lot of people tried to go until Atem's tomb but without success and they all died in the tomb. So, anybody can know the Game of Darkness neither Atem and try to search and discover others informations on this period or the Millenium Items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi
    It depends, though, on how Seto viewed Atem after Kisara's death. If Takahashi was planning on adding a subplot of Seto rebelling against Atem because of her death, then clearly something would've had to happen that would make Seto blame Atem and make him an enemy. (Even if that something was just Akhenaden pulling strings in the background.)
    Yes, this is a good point. Perhaps Atem doing something Seto thinks wrong? They haven't always the same views on several subjects.
    Last edited by Allana; 11/11/10 at 07:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by Allana View Post
    I was referring only to the manga. You meant all events? Until Yugi and co. arrives, the events in the Millenium World aren't the same than the ones happening 3000 years ago, like for example Bakura coming in the palace with Atem's father sarcophage?

    You mean the Puzzle show to Atem the events after he sealed himsefl inside it?
    I can't say whether Bakura showing up at the palace happened or not. But there are some events that are stated, or at least hinted, as never occurring before. One example is Atem killing Thief Bakura with Ra (hence why Zorc Necrophades pulled the sandglass cheat to reverse time). Another example, I think, is that Atem never even summoned the Gods in his original lifetime. This is hinted by Shimon stating that only those who know the names of the Gods can summon them. And we know Atem learned the names of the Gods because of his adventures in the modern era.

    And yes, it's possible the Items could've shown him the events that occurred after his death, considering the Items lived on after him and that they're all linked.

    I read in severals sources the monuments of Armana's period had been destroyed par Tutankhamun's successor to erase the monuments the dynasty had built in order to do like If the traditionnals cults had always existed without interruption. I read that Ay had worked to restaure ancients cults as Tutankhamun had started and that Horemheb would have stated to destroy monuments linked to Tutankhamun.
    I see. So now we're left questioning the logic of whoever erased the name. If they wanted to destroy any remnant of Atem, why erase his name and not the entire monument? Unless Seto was so full of pride that he wanted to remember his "victorious" battle against Atem, while keeping his name erased out of spite.

    Perhaps to there definitively no chance that Zork neither Atem can revives again, It is possible It was a definitive way to prevent It happens, in broking and sealing the Puzzle? Perhaps they refuses that even the chosen one success to assemble it by this possibility that even him don't success to destroy Zork? They didn't know when the next chosen will appears and perhaps they scared he fell because even the Pharaoh with the Gods at his side hadn't success
    And yet you have an entire occult clan and a ghost of a former priest bent on resurrecting him? As the story has progressed, from beginning to end, it's been made clear that after Atem sealed himself and Zorc, the fate of the Items has been to lead Atem back to the afterlife. This would require his resurrection, and his name would be necessary to vanquish Zorc. Unless a follower of Zorc was the one who erased Atem's name, it makes no sense for any of Atem's followers to erase it. And if it was an enemy of Atem, they might as well have destroyed the tablet entirely.
    Last edited by Tobi; 11/11/10 at 07:24 PM.



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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi View Post
    I can't say whether Bakura showing up at the palace happened or not. But there are some events that are stated, or at least hinted, as never occurring before. One example is Atem killing Thief Bakura with Ra (hence why Zorc Necrophades pulled the sandglass cheat to reverse time). Another example, I think, is that Atem never even summoned the Gods in his original lifetime. This is hinted by Shimon stating that only those who know the names of the Gods can summon them. And we know Atem learned the names of the Gods because of his adventures in the modern era.
    I agree with Ra killing Bakura isn't happened in the past. Shimon said that only the chosen Pharaoh could know the names of the Gods and manipulate them and later, in the manga, when the Zork tell to Akhenaden how the true events are occured, there a picture representing the ghost army and Obelisk. That's means Atem knew the names of the Gods at this time.

    And yes, it's possible the Items could've shown him the events that occurred after his death, considering the Items lived on after him and that they're all linked.
    It's an interesting question. Seto own the Puzzle as Pharaoh and when Yugi and others try to enter in the palace to see Atem but they can't because the palace was real for them, the Puzzle throw to Atem the feeling that someone wants talk to him. You mean he can see the events or at least pictures in his mind or something similar?

    I see. So now we're left questioning the logic of whoever erased the name. If they wanted to destroy any remnant of Atem, why erase his name and not the entire monument? Unless Seto was so full of pride that he wanted to remember his "victorious" battle against Atem, while keeping his name erased out of spite.
    This is a possibility. Or he can have chosen to erase only Atem's name and not destroy the tablet to don't forget this battle against Zork. He represented on the tablet the Gods, BEWD, Black Magician but also Exodia and Zork himself. Perhaps he wanted keep a picture of these events how Pegasus wanted to see Cyndia on his Duel Disk, something you can look very often.

    And yet you have an entire occult clan and a ghost of a former priest bent on resurrecting him? As the story has progressed, from beginning to end, it's been made clear that after Atem sealed himself and Zorc, the fate of the Items has been to lead Atem back to the afterlife. This would require his resurrection, and his name would be necessary to vanquish Zorc. Unless a follower of Zorc was the one who erased Atem's name, it makes no sense for any of Atem's followers to erase it. And if it was an enemy of Atem, they might as well have destroyed the tablet entirely.
    Yes, this is true, It was a bad idea. A follower of Zork is the most logical.
    Last edited by Allana; 11/12/10 at 07:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by Allana View Post
    I agree with Ra killing Bakura isn't happened in the past. Shimon said that only the chosen Pharaoh could know the names of the Gods and manipulate them and later, in the manga, when the Zork tell to Akhenaden how the true events are occured, there a picture representing the ghost army and Obelisk. That's means Atem knew the names of the Gods at this time.
    I'll have to find that page again, somehow. I don't have the manga, and the scanlations for Millennium World have been taken down from most manga hosting sites due to licensing.

    It's an interesting question. Seto own the Puzzle as Pharaoh and when Yugi and others try to enter in the palace to see Atem but they can't because the palace was real for them, the Puzzle throw to Atem the feeling that someone wants talk to him. You mean he can see the events or at least pictures in his mind or something similar?
    Yes, that is what I meant, but then a thought occurred to me.

    When Atem sealed himself and Zorc in the Millennium Pendant (at the time), wasn't it then broken into pieces? And compared to the other Items which were guarded by Shadi and the Tombkeepers, the then Millennium Puzzle was placed in Atem's tomb. So even if Seto became pharaoh in actual history, it doesn't seem likely for him to have possessed the Pendant because it was broken. (And only the chosen one could put the pieces back together.) Also, the priests would need to have a proper burial for their deceased pharaoh, no? But his body was trapped in the Puzzle. So wouldn't it make sense that Seto wouldn't have possessed the Puzzle but rather placed it in Atem's tomb as a substitute for his body?

    Which then debunks my idea that the Puzzle could've shown Atem anything that occurred after his death. -.-

    This is a possibility. Or he can have chosen to erase only Atem's name and not destroy the tablet to don't forget this battle against Zork. He represented on the tablet the Gods, BEWD, Black Magician but also Exodia and Zork himself. Perhaps he wanted keep a picture of these events how Pegasus wanted to see Cyndia on his Duel Disk, something you can look very often.
    The tablet does not depict Zorc. As I've said in the Zorc thread, Zorc the demon never came into the picture in actual history; it was Dark Priest formerly-known-as-Akhenaden Zorc Necrophades that was Atem's enemy. Zorc the demon only revealed himself in the RPG world.



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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi View Post
    I'll have to find that page again, somehow. I don't have the manga, and the scanlations for Millennium World have been taken down from most manga hosting sites due to licensing.
    Oh! There scans of the Memory World in Japaneseand the English scans of some others chapters on Janime.
    I'm referring to this picture: Attachment 5948

    It is in Battle 305. At this time, Atem is fighting Bakura with Ra, that's why I mention it.

    Yes, that is what I meant, but then a thought occurred to me.

    When Atem sealed himself and Zorc in the Millennium Pendant (at the time), wasn't it then broken into pieces? And compared to the other Items which were guarded by Shadi and the Tombkeepers, the then Millennium Puzzle was placed in Atem's tomb. So even if Seto became pharaoh in actual history, it doesn't seem likely for him to have possessed the Pendant because it was broken. (And only the chosen one could put the pieces back together.) Also, the priests would need to have a proper burial for their deceased pharaoh, no? But his body was trapped in the Puzzle. So wouldn't it make sense that Seto wouldn't have possessed the Puzzle but rather placed it in Atem's tomb as a substitute for his body?

    Which then debunks my idea that the Puzzle could've shown Atem anything that occurred after his death. -.-
    Yes, indeed. When Atem seals himself in the puzzle, he broke it himself had stated by Zork to Akhenaden. I forgot this point when I answered. But when Atem stay alive and Seto become the Pharaoh, the Puzzle isn't broken at this time.

    Yes, the priest wants a good burial but It's only his soul who is trapped in the puzzle. His body exists still when he seal his soul but It is empty. It is discovered in the second volume.

    The tablet does not depict Zorc. As I've said in the Zorc thread, Zorc the demon never came into the picture in actual history; it was Dark Priest formerly-known-as-Akhenaden Zorc Necrophades that was Atem's enemy. Zorc the demon only revealed himself in the RPG world.
    My mistake, sorry. I confused between the past and the present, this monster seems me similar to Zork.
    Last edited by Allana; 11/12/10 at 10:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duel Monsters) Symbolism, Shout Outs, and Easter Eggs

    Quote Originally Posted by Allana View Post
    Oh! There scans of the Memory World in Japaneseand the English scans of some others chapters on Janime.
    I'm referring to this picture: Attachment 5948

    It is in Battle 305. At this time, Atem is fighting Bakura with Ra, that's why I mention it.
    Yes, that's the page I knew you were referring to. I'll be damned, you're right about Obelisk.



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