Thread: Main Protagonists and their Ace Cards

Originally Posted by blue knight wm

Yeah, there is text on the cards. But a lot of the time the characters seem to play the card instantly without reading its effects. And just know how to use it. Or they summon it using like Savior Dragon knowing how to summon it (Signer Dragon + lv 1 + Savior Dragon) like they already knew it. And they always seem to have cards that just work perfectly in combo with those cards they didn't have two minutes ago.
As for Judai and Super Fusion 'making' fusions for him at random... That was a silly idea, especially since he didn't abuse it to make more E-Hero fusions. He only used it like twice to make random Neos fusions. Rainbow Dragon and Neos Wiseman of course.

Considering Super Fusion was made from the souls of innocent bystanders who were kidnapped and tortured before being brutally killed, I can kinda understand Judai's hesitation at ever wanting to use the card in the first place. Furthermore, it was more of a symbol of his friendship/bonding with people. It's only used to create fusions of cards with things that are usually outside of his archetype. Rainbow Neos and Neos Wiseman being perfect examples.

And yeah, they know how to use the cards quickly, but that's why they're good duelists. They pick up on quickly how to integrate a new card into their deck. As for how Yusei and Jack knew how to summon their Savior monsters, well, seeing as how they knew the card they were gonna draw was the answer they needed, it's more than likely they knew thanks to them being a Signer, what it took to bring them out.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

Umm...well in-universe, they weren't able to use cards within their own deck to take down a foe. They needed "divine intervention." That's a downgrade of their skill. And going by the internal logic of the 5Ds story, Savior Star Dragon, Savior Dragon and the likes wouldn't really feasibly exist, seeing as how all the Signer Dragons were one of a kind energy reactor keys created by Kaiba Corp.

Yugi was able to beat Osiris on his own with his own cards and his own ingenious strategy. Yugi suddenly being given a random new card by Hokarthy and beating and obtaining Osiris that way would not show him as a good duelist. How can you not get that?

Yusei even admits that had he not gotten Savior Dragon as a tuner in his first duel against Ghost, he would've lost. Ergo, his skill alone wasn't enough to beat Ghost. Showing him as less skilled.

How you can say their skill as a duelist is irrelevant to the story and its writing is confusing as hell.

What I'm saying is that it was WRITTEN to be divine intervention, which is the bigger issue. This is all an issue into the first place because it was written that way, when it never needed to be. None of these cards are nearly as fantasic, broken, or "godly" as, say, the God Cards. I just don't think it's fair to take it up with the duelists who, in all fairness, were doomed from the start for being trapped in a crappy situation. That's all.

I mean, if Savior Dragon had just been a card in their decks, if it hadn't been presented as this magical card that appears in times of need, we can all agree that this wouldn't be an issue, right? It just keeps going.

More to that, though, that's probably just the theme of the show. Dramatic. Shiny.

Originally Posted by blue knight wm

It's stuff like that that increased my dislike of how the writers portrayed Yusei. Against big important opponents with card effects that made them pretty much broken, he couldn't figure out how to take them down without using some card that wasn't supposed to be in his deck... Not only that, but he top decked a card just when he needed it... One that he didn't have two seconds ago... Without the crimson dragon Yusei seriously would have never been the 'hero' he was. Which makes me curious if he gave up dueling in the end cause he lost Crimson Dragon's help.

And you can say the exact thing about Judai and Yuma too.

You do realize not all of Yusei's duels relied on him summoning Majestic Star Dragon, right? He only used it 4 times in the entire series.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

What I'm saying is that it was WRITTEN to be divine intervention, which is the bigger issue. This is all an issue into the first place because it was written that way, when it never needed to be. None of these cards are nearly as fantasic, broken, or "godly" as, say, the God Cards. I just don't think it's fair to take it up with the duelists who, in all fairness, were doomed from the start for being trapped in a crappy situation. That's all.

But Ragna was speaking from an in-universe example of how they were portrayed and that's just the fact of the situation. Yusei was shown to not be skilled enough on his own to take down Ghost. He needed the Crimson Dragon's power at first to take down Meklord Wisel. Each time they have to fall back on that, it means they needed outside help to do it. Doesn't mean they're a cheat or unskilled at all, but they didn't have the skill enough to do it by themselves.

I mean, if Savior Dragon had just been a card in their decks, if it hadn't been presented as this magical card that appears in times of need, we can all agree that this wouldn't be an issue, right? It just keeps going.

That'd make even less sense though, because Savior/Savior Star Dragon would have no logical reason to exist in the first place. Again. One of a kind cards. Energy Reactor Keys. Why the heck would their be varying levels of support/evolutions for it?

More to that, though, that's probably just the theme of the show. Dramatic. Shiny.

Which is bad writing, which goes right back to Ragna's point.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

But Ragna was speaking from an in-universe example of how they were portrayed and that's just the fact of the situation. Yusei was shown to not be skilled enough on his own to take down Ghost. He needed the Crimson Dragon's power at first to take down Meklord Wisel. Each time they have to fall back on that, it means they needed outside help to do it. Doesn't mean they're a cheat or unskilled at all, but they didn't have the skill enough to do it by themselves.

Perhaps. I guess I'm just not keen on looking at anything past Dark Signers too "in-universe".

That'd make even less sense though, because Savior/Savior Star Dragon would have no logical reason to exist in the first place. Again. One of a kind cards. Energy Reactor Keys. Why the heck would their be varying levels of support/evolutions for it?

Which just gets back to the big issue here: They're only like that because the plot wrote them that way, right?

Originally Posted by sevencrows

Perhaps. I guess I'm just not keen on looking at anything past Dark Signers too "in-universe".


Which just gets back to the big issue here: They're only like that because the plot wrote them that way, right?

Well if you're gonna analyze or discuss the series and its plot you can't ignore its own story and how it sets itself up and its characters.

And yeah, the plot wrote them that way, which is unfortunate, but that's the way the story is. And if the story sets them up to show them as being unable to take on a threat without the aid of the bright red dragon in the sky, then that's how it is.

NAS thinks that's cool. Most people think it's a disservice to the talent of the actual characters. But ever since GX that's how they've been doing it which is kinda derpy to me.

I think the thing is is that it's just... expected, I guess? I dunno-- I'm not sure how to word it, so sorry if I sound a bit weird here. Truthfully, until this thread, having those cards, how they got them, and their skill in tandem with those things never crossed my mind. Them existing, how they existed, etc. in the universe, given the origins, yeah, but what can you do?

I think we just need to not look at 5D's (and perhaps GX) as something as bound by logic as DM was.

For instance, instead of equating it to skill and comparing it to Yugi, I honestly think it might be more logical to compare the appearance of Savior Dragon as like, a shonen hero's transformation into a form he can only reach in times of extreme danger/emotional panic - perhaps like how Goku first became a Super Saiyan, but not... quite? I can't think of any offhand, but I think we all know the type. 5D's really seemed to be trying to be more "action" shonen in that respect, perhaps-- They were fighting, and the cards were just their spells, their guns, their swords, their magic, etc.

Perhaps it's farfetched, and still not an excuse once we take a stroll back into the realm of reality, but if they were trying to write a flashy action show (with card games), I can... sort of see it? I'm not even sure where I'm going here anymore, but yeah.

Kinda hard to do that with Yugi's name being in the same title that they both appear in, and them playing a game named after him.

It's part of the same franchise. Yeah thematically it does resemble a shonen transformation, but that doesn't also divorce it from the same themes, continuity and setting of the franchise it's apart. Especially considering its borrowing heavily from it in the first place. It can't have its cake and eat it to, completely different yet a direct member of the franchise and its story.

Just a symptom of a story having numerously different writers with varying levels of quality, tastes, motivations, etc.

Like I said, it doesn't excuse it, I just think that's the feeling it was going for.

To be fair, though, Yugioh doesn't need to be ABOUT Yugi or DM - card game's only named after him because the franchise is, and it's debatable whether or not it even is. Besides, like them or not, GX and 5D's still are their own series in their own right. 5D's just decided to be a crazy shonen where GX decided to be Jarry Yotter and the Card Games and Zexal decided to be terrible (except for Shark).

Takahashi specifically said he named it Yu-Gi-Oh in reference to Yugi, and his name being a pun on "King of games" so there's no real debate about it. And yeah, the franchise isn't just about Yugi or DM, after all that's over. My point though is that you can't stop it from being compared to the original. It will always be. Since it's the grand daddy and origin of the franchise. It's the only one that had a direct hand from Takahashi. No matter how many spin off series are made, they're still gonna be directly tied and/or compared to the original. It's the progenitor, the ancestor.

It's like Digimon. Yeah, Digimon isn't about the original Adventure story anymore, but still doesn't stop people from comparing its spinoffs to it or it making call backs to it.

5Ds added lots of sentai/action elements to it that worked some and failed some. Yoshida however couldn't keep it balanced though and often times made it extremely ridiculous for a YGO series, not to mention just plain weird.

Zexal's got the same damn issues with it too, and I just wish Yoshida would gtfo of YGO and make his own damn sci-fi futuristic card game series and quit funking up YGO with his BS.

If only.

But then we wouldn't get great cards like High and Low or whatever that... thing at the end of Jack and Yusei's last duel was.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

But then we wouldn't get great cards like High and Low or whatever that... thing at the end of Jack and Yusei's last duel was.

LOL very funny

The entire duel was marred by the horrible duel scripting and cards Yusei used. Not to mention the fact for some reason Yusei just had to win again and for some odd reason everyone just loses touch with each other. The future of Yusei and the others from Z-ONE's timeline seemed better than the one the series actually gave us. It at least made sense and was interesting. But that's another diatribe for another thread.

The thing that really gets mme about Yusei, even more-so than when Savior Star has bailed him out, is that it took him six months to figure out how the hell he was going to kill the Machine Emperors, especially when Crow was just "lol, my archetype has a card that can do that right now." ... and Yusei was like, ZOMG that's amazing, when Yusei's deck has at least TWO Synchro cards that can counter the Machine Emperors before he decided to try Synchro Fusion (Which he never even used against Wisel anyway.)

When you put that on top of the Savior Dragon thing, then it becomes slightly more acceptable that the Jack he defeated in the Fortune Cup had a few of his matches rigged.

I think it's also an acceptable to remember that the Yusei in the Fortune Cup would probably be baffled at the idea of a Savior Dragon. Those were the days when it was Junk Warrior that still reigned supreme, after all.

And what glorious days they were...

Originally Posted by sevencrows

I think it's also an acceptable to remember that the Yusei in the Fortune Cup would probably be baffled at the idea of a Savior Dragon. Those were the days when it was Junk Warrior that still reigned supreme, after all.

And what glorious days they were...

It was much simpler back before they had to fight evil, and use cards that were 'all powerful'. Or at least tried to be... I'll admit they weren't bad, but... They were far from being something you can just use easily... Frankly I'd think Yusei would have been better off using Junk Destroyer more often... Wouldn't he have killed all the pieces of the Emperors if he just hit the core with Junk Archer and made it vanish for a turn? No core, the pieces suicide... Then he'd have to try and rebuild... Was Yusei just that uninvented?

Originally Posted by blue knight wm

Was Yusei just that uninvented?

Characters are as inventive as their writers, in my opinion.

Which is exactly the reason the post-Tomioka 5D's staff recieves so much heat. It's baffling how many things went down hill form just the screenwriter leaving.

Originally Posted by sd2000

Characters are as inventive as their writers, in my opinion.

How true that is... Alas 5Ds needed it's Dues Ex Machina since something stupid... I mean... Something like the god cards didn't exist. Though GX didn't have as many uber out of no where cards as 5Ds... At least not that the heroes used.

Originally Posted by blue knight wm

How true that is... Alas 5Ds needed it's Dues Ex Machina since something stupid... I mean... Something like the god cards didn't exist. Though GX didn't have as many uber out of no where cards as 5Ds... At least not that the heroes used.

....You're kidding right?

Originally Posted by blue knight wm

How true that is... Alas 5Ds needed it's Dues Ex Machina since something stupid... I mean... Something like the god cards didn't exist. Though GX didn't have as many uber out of no where cards as 5Ds... At least not that the heroes used.

Judai's entire deck---nevermind. It's like talking to a wall wearing Groucho Marx glasses.

Well, Judai's Neos deck was all a bunch of bull milarky that showed up out of thin air... Gotta stop forgetting about all of those... But the Neos stuff sucks, most of it isn't worth comparing to the stuff from 5Ds. His first season stuff was so much better... I'd like to just forget that Neos exists some times...
Sometimes though I can't tell when I'm being serious or joking. *Taps his own chin*

It wasn't just Neos - one could argue half the crap from Judai's childhood that materialized without prior mention could qualify as some kind of Deus Ex Machina - especially when you're actively COMBINING them with other Deus Ex Machina. Neos Wiseman, anyone? Then you have stuff like God Neos, which far outweighed Quasar Dragon in terms of the sheer amount of BS, because at least Quasar was alluded to like almost 6 or 7 episodes previously.

GX was every bit as guilty. I'd say the series that did it the absolute least was DM. And then you have ZeXal, which does it 99 over 99 times as of the Chaos Numbers.

Originally Posted by blue knight wm

Well, Judai's Neos deck was all a bunch of bull milarky that showed up out of thin air... Gotta stop forgetting about all of those... But the Neos stuff sucks, most of it isn't worth comparing to the stuff from 5Ds. His first season stuff was so much better... I'd like to just forget that Neos exists some times...
Sometimes though I can't tell when I'm being serious or joking. *Taps his own chin*

Philospher's Stone - Sabatiel
E-Hero Neos, Neo Spacians (Grand Mole, enough said)
Super Fusion
Rainbow Neos
Neos Wiseman
E-Hero God Neos
Subspacial Battle
Code Change
Super Junior Confrontation

...I mean, do I need to go on?

You look at 5Ds in comparison and tell me with a straight face who just spun the most cards out of thin air.

I would consider the card already being in the deck pre-duel less of a Deus Ex Machina and just more stupid writing that downplays the character's skill levels when we're supposed to believe they're really good (or in Yuma's case, the reverse. =/) at duel Monsters, really.

I thought Code Change was pretty neat and creative, actually. There's no proof that anything non Neospacian other than Dandylion was in Judai's KC satellite pod of destiny and good guy darkness.

Here's something to consider: after the initial summonings of Savior Dragon (and the following Synchros), Shooting Star Dragon, and Scar Red Nova, all their hokey transformation sequences aside - Yusei DID still know they were in his deck/of them (in Savior's case), the requirements of how to use them, etc. He may not have physically had the card, but from his perspective, maybe he was treating them as if they were?

Or... something. At least it's not as bad as Yuma's disappearing Extra Deck so he can fail when Astral isn't around. That I'm not even going to try to understand.

Yusei didn't rely on Savior Dragon. He knew it wouldn't always show up and needed something else to curbstomp the Machine Emperors. The big problem there was he already had the Synchro monsters to do that.

Shooting Star wasn't as bad, but the whole "I must Accel Synchro/Find some way to defeat the Machine emperors!" plotline made Yusei look like a real idiot. Yusei's Shining Moment of Duncery will always be the Momentum Express duel, though. That was just...

Originally Posted by Ragna

Yusei's Shining Moment of Duncery will always be the Momentum Express duel, though. That was just...

Stardust: I am not responsible for what he's doing right now.

Originally Posted by Ragna

Shooting Star wasn't as bad, but the whole "I must Accel Synchro/Find some way to defeat the Machine emperors!" plotline made Yusei look like a real idiot. Yusei's Shining Moment of Duncery will always be the Momentum Express duel, though. That was just...

Agreed and agreed and I will never understand why he never kept it up with the Synchro Fusion when, quite frankly, Draco-Equiste is both good and a lot easier on him to summon.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

Agreed and agreed and I will never understand why he never kept it up with the Synchro Fusion when, quite frankly, Draco-Equiste is both good and a lot easier on him to summon.

I'm curious why that thing didn't end up getting summoned more often. It was pretty awesome all things considered. Though it wasn't nearly as 'awesome' effect wise as Shooting Star.
And I'll admit my bias towards forgiving GXs many sins is a little... Over whelming at times... Though the magic card he used against the Sacred Beast monsters was only in his deck for that one duel. I loathe the Neos cards, every last one of them... At least the ones in the main anime... Neos Knight and Alius are the only Neos cards I personally play. And I can only assume Judai's season one deck was all cards he got from packs or something... Which as most peoples decks was never explained.

The fact that the Philosipher's stone card could become any card he imagined, and it only appeared once to bail him out of a tight jam, it was the epitome of Deus Ex Machina in Yu-Gi-Oh!

Originally Posted by Ragna

The fact that the Philosipher's stone card could become any card he imagined, and it only appeared once to bail him out of a tight jam, it was the epitome of Deus Ex Machina in Yu-Gi-Oh!

Agreed, him using that card made my eye twitch... And made me wanna punch some writer in the head for thinking a card that lets you use any magic card in your deck 3 times for half your LP, and then becomes an uber equip... Is a bother.

... Well my assumption was that it literally turned into the other card after he used it.

Honestly, I want to like the Neo-Spacians and Neos, because I do like their designs and the effects of the Neo-Spacians, but... No. In the alternate universe where they were released as proper E-Heroes and got proper fusions, though, I'm sure I love them. Here, though, sparingly so.

As for Neos Knight? I personally prefer Vision Hero Trinity myself. 5000 ATK, gets more HEROes in the grave for a miracle fusion, and it can attack one more time AND deal battle damage outside of direct attacks.

Originally Posted by sevencrows

... Well my assumption was that it literally turned into the other card after he used it.

Honestly, I want to like the Neo-Spacians and Neos, because I do like their designs and the effects of the Neo-Spacians, but... No. In the alternate universe where they were released as proper E-Heroes and got proper fusions, though, I'm sure I love them. Here, though, sparingly so.

As for Neos Knight? I personally prefer Vision Hero Trinity myself. 5000 ATK, gets more HEROes in the grave for a miracle fusion, and it can attack one more time AND deal battle damage outside of direct attacks.

Can't say Neos Knight has been impressing me much lately... Half consider taking him out of my extra deck, except for the fact I already play 2 Alius's and have no reason not to have one in the extra deck. The only reason would be for space for duplicates of E-Hero fusions, which I only have an extra for Zero. The V-Heroes aren't in my extra deck because I was trying to save space, and partially cause I wasn't expecting to come out yet. Only way I can use them though is future fusion, unless I decide to test out Super Fusion like my room mate is.

I don't know what is this bias bull going on but it's just a game. Cards that comes out-of-nowhere is over doing it. I'll say that much but it is what it is and nothing and no one can change that. I have been playing this game for years and it's a fun game. This stuff is never going to happen in real life so just get over it.

We're not talking about the game, we're talking about the story in the manga/anime.

Please read the thread before stomping in with tiny text and a big attitude.

-Thank you.

Sorry to brake it to you but YGO! has never been "just a game".

Apparently the 'Gods' deemed Duel Monster's a worthy thing to risk one's life on. <.< And thus used their magics to create ubber powerful cards to give to random characters in order to make them look cool. *Nods* While risking their souls on what should be a friendly card game.

...Again, what are you talking about?

Dude, duel monsters was never just "a friendly card game" in the story. Remember Atem? The Millennium Items? The Games of Darkness? Pegasus under the control of the Millennium Eye, creating the card game as a means of fulfilling his wish to see his dead lover and recreate the games of darkness from 3000 years ago in the past? That's the real history and purpose of the game's creation. Yeah it's a game, but it's certainly more than just a game. It's always been. It's like the people who say that haven't been paying attention at all to the story or something.

And what gods are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

And what gods are you talking about?

I would assume he's talking about the Sangenshin (knowing his feelings about them), but he could also be talking about Crimson Dragon, the Earthbound Gods and/or the Polar Gods.

*Crawls back into hiding*

Yeah well the Sangenshin never chose who used them, or bestowed themselves to anybody. They were just created, and whoever got them first was their owner. Kaiba was loaned Obelisk by Ishizu. Malik stole Ra, and Yugi won Osiris from one of Malik's goons.

They're not the Tri-Polar/Aesir/Nordic God cards.

Well, when I talk about Gods I mean who ever the 'Gods' that give all the duelists powers in this series are. There's gotta be some force out there that's creating these things. *Shrugs* Though it's more of a bad joke, then really talking about any real gods. <.< Sorry for the confusion.