Thread: Manga Doma Project!

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

I'm assuming that's the card translation, since the text is readily available. I mean, Otogi used and he activated it, so if that text is right, I'd say its his.

Makes sense to me. Theoretically, you could do this with an opponent's Dragon, summon it in Defence Mode for 0 DEF. Owned.

Furthermore, during the Kaiba Corp Grand Prix, Rebecca calls Diamond Head Dragon her "new" dragon card, which she tries to use against Leon. Maybe Otogi gave it to her?

Or she found her own copy. Or she stole it. Basically, she got it somehow. The KC Grand Prix is its own can of worms.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

That ties into the fact Dartz is literally the end all and be all of almost every evil occurrence for 10,000 years in DM. It's quite insane if you think about it. From destroying Atlantis, to witnessing the fall of Egypt, to collecting thousands of souls for over 10,000 years, basically ruling the world of politics and business, and then trolling his own men.

Dartz is behind everything.

I don't think I have to go into how utterly insane and over the top that is. But it's symptomatic of what the Doma arc does. Doma literally tries to turn EVERYTHING in YGO up to 11, and while it makes for an interesting arc that grips you and keeps you entertained, when you try to reconcile that with the rest of the series and what all has gone down, you can't help but scratch your head and thing...

"...LOL whut?"

So basically, Dartz and Darkness fill the same niche; except one is a Green-Haired pretty boy, and the other is SATAN.

Originally Posted by Lillian

DOMA already had a manga. It was called Yu-Gi-Oh! R and while imperfect, it was a hundred times better than that anime filler nonsense.

Except that's the point of this thread; improving that "anime filler nonsense" to be manga-worthy.

Except that's the point of this thread; improving that "anime filler nonsense" to be manga-worthy.

And that's why I said its already been done, hence "R".

Originally Posted by Ragna

Anzu saw it too.

I'd have to check the Memory Eorld arc though, just to make sure I'm not wrong about that even being a plot hole in the first place. The problem is I don't own it. ;.;

Mm, did she actually? I seem to recall Anzu was only around and... well... seeing things when she was projected by the Solid Vision on Yugi/Atem's duel disc. He had to remove her card and deactivate her hologram in order to duel on her behalf. I'd have to re-read the volume but I don't think she was directly aware of what happened when she wasn't 'in play'.

...Also my meek request is hands off the Rebecca. ;.; Her interactions with Yugi are by a large margin one of my favorite developments in Doma (and the KCGP). She'd have to be new content for a manga Doma, but given her grandfather is indirect manga canon, and he's the archaeologist who deals w/Atlantis, it wouldn't be that hard to keep her in some respect. My idle, selfish wish aside though, I wonder how you'd handle Pegasus. Doma is like the arc that begins Pegasus' anime/manga duality as the dead/alive Schroedinger's Cardmaker.

Originally Posted by Hisui

My idle, selfish wish aside though, I wonder how you'd handle Pegasus. Doma is like the arc that begins Pegasus' anime/manga duality as the dead/alive Schroedinger's Cardmaker.

Well, if you take out Legend of Hearts from the equation, Pegasus' presence becomes pretty much unnecessary, assuming one of his cronies can fill in the less demanding role of distributing the Legendary Dragon cards. I love Pegasus as much as the next guy, but let's face it, manga!Pegsy is dead.

If this is set in the Mangaverse, I'd say using Gekkou and Yakou in place of Pegasus, while more deadpan in execution, would make fair sense if you need to get Industrial Illusions dragged in. Since Pegasus is "Gone".

On the other hand, I think Dr. Hopkins/Hawkins and his Grand Daughter would be legitimate additions with at least the professor's existence a sure thing in the manga. Hell, they'd add something: I don't expect Yugi and co. to be very good at English, which is something I'd hope the arc would address. And the Hopkins do give a gateway into the Wild and Wacky US o' A.

I'd fix the monster spirit world issue by changing it so that the Ka monster thing had been around for a long time and that the people of Atlantis were corrupted by the Oricalcos, thus turning their Ka evil. Then use the Legendary Dragons as the Ka of the knights who fought against the evil. (Or something along those lines, it's been awhile since I read the actual manga, so it may need some fixing)

Other things I'd change-
-Change the corruption of Atem, keeping it similar to the original, but instead of the darkness inside of him overtaking him, having Raphael force him to play it somehow. (More so than he did)
-As I said in a previous post, making the fight of Kaiba and Yugi VS Dartz be a little more plausible, and not having a card with infinite ATK be summoned.

Since Orichalcos Shunoros was based on a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog%C5%AB ... hrm. I'd say we have possible 3 options to go with Dartz.
1) In the anime, his monsters were generally named after Greek terms. Continue with that and make it a gibber jabber mess.
2) Perhaps make his deck based off of condemned idols? The Doguu was worshiped as an aboriginal god in Japan, before Shinto was dropped on the country's head by force. Monsters like Ba'al and Dagon who were demonized, perchance? Seems feasible.
3) Maybe OOParts. Idk.

But I do think his deck should take advantage of the strengths of the Seal of Orichawhoitz.

I do think the Great Leviathan would work as his ace card though, but don't give it Infinite ATK. That's silly and you're silly. This is silly.

I'd... also avoid using Penalty Game Victims potentially. If we have Ushio and Kaiba as examples of people who suffer Penalty Games... Vigilante!Yugi's Penalty Games inflict a terrible/humilating punishment on the victim to teach them humility. Ushio (with at least the anime) went from a Greedy and manipulative jerk to being a gruff if somewhat hard-as-nails Police Officer. And Kaiba's game led to him creating the entire Solid Vision technology and ultimately led to him becoming a mature adult who wants to make children like him and his brother happy (for profit, but we can't fault him on wanting to get some action out of making people happy.)

And wasn't the entire point with the original duel that The Pharaoh was in a losing situation without the Seal? Though I believe someone mentioned The Pharaoh was a moron because there was no Life-or-Death stakes...

But Raphael doesn't seem the sort to entirely threaten people with murder despite being a Musketeer of Doma. He was always portrayed as sort of Honorable from what I remember. So we've got a problem. We want Yugi's soul yanked out potentially to give the Pharaoh character development, but we don't have good reason for The Pharaoh to be a putz.

Hm. Would we want to extend the Three Musketrers motif of the Doma Trio? Do we add in a d'Artagnan allegory?

Originally Posted by Dr_Watson

Well, if you take out Legend of Hearts from the equation, Pegasus' presence becomes pretty much unnecessary, assuming one of his cronies can fill in the less demanding role of distributing the Legendary Dragon cards. I love Pegasus as much as the next guy, but let's face it, manga!Pegsy is dead.

I think we could have a message left by Pegasus. Not even addressed to Yugi, just research he left behind talking about Doma's influence over the business world.

Originally Posted by NeoArkadia

Hm. Would we want to extend the Three Musketrers motif of the Doma Trio? Do we add in a d'Artagnan allegory?

I was thinking about making the references more than just the names, although Dartz already sort of fits the d'Artagnan role. But perhaps it's best for the references to remain subtle rather than beating us over the head with them. Considering it's only comparatively recently that I even heard that Doma characters are based off of characters from The Three Musketeers, I'd say it was a pretty smooth job.

Originally Posted by NeoArkadia

I'd... also avoid using Penalty Game Victims potentially. If we have Ushio and Kaiba as examples of people who suffer Penalty Games... Vigilante!Yugi's Penalty Games inflict a terrible/humilating punishment on the victim to teach them humility. Ushio (with at least the anime) went from a Greedy and manipulative jerk to being a gruff if somewhat hard-as-nails Police Officer. And Kaiba's game led to him creating the entire Solid Vision technology and ultimately led to him becoming a mature adult who wants to make children like him and his brother happy (for profit, but we can't fault him on wanting to get some action out of making people happy.)

That's not entirely true. It was Kaiba's first Penalty Game that made him create the bloody vengeance festival called Death-T. We haven't seen any of the other victims again in the manga, and I wouldn't exactly count 5D's Ushio as manga canon. Personally, I like the idea of bringing some of these people back. They could add a lot to Atem's guilt-trip arc and would certainly have more believable motives for joining Doma than Mai did.

Originally Posted by Ryusaki

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]I think we could have a message left by Pegasus. Not even addressed to Yugi, just research he left behind talking about Doma's influence over the business world.

That could work, yeah. He could have learned a lot if he used I2's supposed business connections with Paradius as a cover. And I can't help thinking that a flashback of one of his meetings with Dartz would make the FABULOUS~ counter go over 9000.

That's not entirely true. It was Kaiba's first Penalty Game that made him create the bloody vengeance festival called Death-T.

Oh. Derp. My mind completely blanked out Death-T and the second Penalty Game he got. But... mmm. I suppose. I guess the question is specifically "Who would work as mooks for Doma to use." I guess. While there's a good nostalgia factor to it, there's something dubious/lacking to me about using those people.

... Though. Hrm. Might be equally as bad, Tomoya Hanasaki never showed up after Death-T... that might be worth investigating or it might not.

Originally Posted by NeoArkadia

Oh. Derp. My mind completely blanked out Death-T and the second Penalty Game he got. But... mmm. I suppose. I guess the question is specifically "Who would work as mooks for Doma to use." I guess. While there's a good nostalgia factor to it, there's something dubious/lacking to me about using those people.

The DK Player Killers? The guy from the ice bomb game? It needs to be someone who received a hefty amount of lasting physical and/or mental damage. Hirutani could make for an interesting story with Jonouchi, but I somehow don't see him as the type to settle scores with anything other than physical violence.

... Though. Hrm. Might be equally as bad, Tomoya Hanasaki never showed up after Death-T... that might be worth investigating or it might not.

Not that I'd be adverse to some Hanasaki, but the problem is, we already have so many good guys in this story that some of them don't even have anything useful to do XD.

... The DK Player killers would be nice. Very nice. They seem like the sort I could see Doma actually giving a crap about for some reason over some of Yugi's earlier enemies. But that might be my "hurp a durp Card Game" bias structuring.

And...

I meant more use Hanasaki as one of those manipulated by Doma to explain why he poofed after Death-T. But yeah. This a place that sadly, we can introduce and reuse a lot of good existing canon characters. I still think introducing at least Arthur Hopkins would work. He's American, he serves as a legitimate info dump about ancient civilizations, and possibly bringing up that recent evidence points to Egypt having its magical traditions inspired by an earlier civilization.

... Hrm.

Let's see... using the show as a general time line.
145-146: I don't think many of us can complain about this part. Gurimo was fun, if anyone has gripes with Obelisk, I suppose I can see that as a point... but it does show how corrupting the seal is, that it can bend the Ka of a God to its will. But that might be too overpowering for some. Hrm. But I can the beginning of this working. If we want any d'Artagnan implications, perhaps explain Gurimo was a member of Doma who was an apprentice of sorts trying to earn his rank up to that of Dartz's 3 other lackies?

147: This needs to be changed with how Yugi receives Timaeus. I'd suggest putting Arthur's Info Dump somewhere else.

148: I think we can possibly have Yakou/Gekkou show up here, expositioning that I2 has been getting undercut and slowly bought out by some unknown company. Perhaps drop Timaeus here, with the Tenmas explaining it's one of three cards that can help to stop what might be going on? Idk.

149-150: Hrm. Amelda appears here... perhaps have him try to impersonate one of the Tenma brothers. The main problem here is with Yakou, his aces for the most part were the Wicked Gods, and I think if we have line-facing at Obelisk, it'll get worse here. Also we need to get Critias into Kaiba's hands in a less ******** answer than the anime. Also, perhaps give Critias some sort of Junk Collector effect if we want to make these dragons more down to Earth.

Also, this might make people piss at me, but I sort of liked Aleister for Amedlia. It adds a bit more subtext/geekery to the story arc, but 4kids is the Great Satan, I know. I'd also like to suggest perhaps combining Amelda's War Deck with the Demon Deck to create War Machine themed demon-ish stuff. As Amelda's multiple deck stuff kind of annoyed me when Rafael and Valon seemed more coherent.

151-154: Ho boy. This is the point where a lot of us agree we need to swerve from canon. Mai doesn't work as a lackey with the way the show did it. Either we get someone else to replace her or make her extremely unwilling to be doing this but she's basically being massively blackmailed into serving as the opponent. I'd also perhaps show off the Seal as properly be addicting here, since Gurimo and Amelda seem like they'd have gotten to it and their personalities warped from extended use.

Also there's the problem of Hermos/Helmos. This like Critias needs some way of legitmately getting into Jounouchi's hands... if Mai's still here, I'd suggest the Valon explodes the ring thing, but if not, I'd let whoever was dueling Jou to get Soul Zapped.

On the other hand, I'd have the Tenma brothers be the exposition jerks here, explaining the weird incidents are the result of a strange man called Dartz who's been approaching I2 and KaibaCorp for years. (Also I'd make Hermos, Timaeus, and Critias serve as Key Cards to access this information.) And then explain that they made these dragons as counter cards to the Orichalcos. ... Somehow. Someone smarter than me can justify this or make a better excuse why we have special plot coupon dragons.

155: I'd probably keep Arthur being kidnapped. Hrm. But I forget the contents of these episodes... so I'd try to introduce Rebecca at some point here, I don't know if she has already. But if when Rebecca is introduced, I'd use a few chapters with her and possibly dueling Yugi as a "cool down period" between plot beats, and also introduce her slightly >:<y ness concerning her Grandfather and Sugoroku.

If we need The Pharaoh to get pissed, we might need to keep Arthur as a hostage here. Maybe have Rafael explain to the Pharaoh this isn't his sort of thing, but he's forced to follow orders, trying to keep him an honorable guy.

If we have Haga here, we need to drop the Rare Card goofball crack, imo. That shit was getting a bit dumb. But hell, their plot doesn't even make sense, it's like Hagalligan's Island. 8|

156-158: Fix Rafael's backstory's time scale. Most of the duel should work, give or take some mass modifying at points, but I think with Arthur as a hostage and his life on the line, The Pharaoh might be more reasonably pressured into using the Orichalcos, even if it's a dumb move after he's seen the damn thing's addictiveness. Rest of this goes as it did, probably. I would, if Rafael is forced to try and kill Arthur, that Honda, Jou, and Anzu and whoever else do a Big Damn Heroes moment and save the old man.

159: I'd have probably a longer and more reprocussive "What the Hell, Hero!?" thing to the Pharaoh with pulling the ******** he did using the Seal. Since we don't have Haga and Rex here most likely, I'd use this point to introduce two old opponents from DK or the Dark Game period. ... Humorously the Meikyuu brothers might work, but they were more of a tag team, and those two seemed to be dicks, yes, but "we were just doing our job", so I can't see the motivation. I can see motivation from Player Killer of Darkness, if you know, he didn't literally die.

160-162: Mostly this sort of would play out how it did from the Haga/Ryuuzaki and I like Haga's Berserk Button pushing. Do we have anyone specifically who'd be enough of a putz who isn't Haga to do this (Though Haga would work. Ryuzaki wouldn't, but I can see Haga being petty enough to do horrible shit to people.)

163: ... Nergh. This episode always seemed weird. I guess if we want it more down to Earth, I suppose we can use the Player Killer with the puppet gimmick. He'd work here, might be sort of lame brained, but on a more down to Earth way, it allows the Pharaoh to work through his issues by himself. Also, what do we do with Ironheart and friends? They seem like something we could lose without much grief.

164: ... Do we even need the Orichalcos Soldier? Seriously speaking?

165: I can see possibly Valon, if we drop Otogi and have him duel Rebecca, go easy on her because she's a kid. Valon was in an orphanage, right? Give him a thing for kids maybe since he knows the cruelty of the world. I guess I just like villains who have morals enough to Pet the Dog when it's a kid. Though not sure we'd even need this without Mai. Blurgh.

166-167: The Travel into Amelda's past seemed excessively acid trip and reality breaking. We're trying to avoid those. I can support some sort of spell making the plane resemble Amelda's past. ... Do we also have the plane central section get deleted by the Seal? ... Dueling on a Plane was also kinda silly. But. XD;

168: ... Not how much we should follow other than Dartz going "lol, I've got your companyz in mai handz."

169-173: We need a lot of rewriting if Mai's been yanked out, and a lot of motivation justification change for Valon. Seriously. And rewrite the Armor Deck. But I like the Rock'em Sock'em Robots fight of Jou vs Valon. So. :U

174-176: Deathscythe needs a less retarded backstory or WAY less allegory here. Also probably less insane card effects going on here. But I think a lot of the Spirit of this Duel makes sense. But do we have Rafael saved by his Lol Split Personality getting nomnom'd by the Seal or not?

177-182: Have Dartz explain how Atlantis was tainted by its own evil and the Leviathan has told him it wants him to wipe out all the evil in the world and all that hoo-ha. Get Dartz a less Lulz deck, make the duel a little more sane... do we have Kaiba and Yugi work together to beat Dartz or let Kaiba do Dramatic sacrifice.

183-184: I believe people wanted Epicz Gods smashing the Leviathan's face in.

I do apologize with using a lot of 4kid's names here off and on, but a bunch of them did feel a bit Woosley-ism/Clever to me when considering everything and seemed to subtly nod towards stuff.

Yakou's ace monster without the Devil Gods seemed to be Barbaros. No need for the Devil Gods to be around.

yugi used a card in DOMa that forced Rapheal to play the Necormancy Yugi had given him. That's how shitty the writing for that duel was. They had a perfectly viable excuse to make Yugi play the seal, and they gave it to the wrong player. >.>

NeoArkadia, for the Haga replacement of 160-162... How about Death Ventriloquist? If he was working for Dartz, he could even have a Yugi Doll, and taunt Atem with that. That'd be creepier and just as painful as to trigger Atem Berserk!Rage! as Haga's taunting was. Of course, then you can't use him for 163 then. But I'd probably make 163 some Sennen Puzzle manufactured hallucination, or something. Hell, if we wanted to weave Dark Bakura in somehow, it could even be some sort of precursor to the Dark RPG, some mind-warping game to snap Atem out of Emo!Rage! mode.

As for 166-167, emergency landing is always a good standby. Then, you can have the location of the duel as mental as you want, provided it's on the land. Duelling in the air was a tad bonkers, to put it lightly.

Originally Posted by Ragna

Yakou's ace monster without the Devil Gods seemed to be Barbaros. No need for the Devil Gods to be around.

yugi used a card in DOMa that forced Rapheal to play the Necormancy Yugi had given him. That's how shitty the writing for that duel was. They had a perfectly viable excuse to make Yugi play the seal, and they gave it to the wrong player. >.>

Ahh, the Demi-God card. That's one of my favorite new YGO R monsters. Damn it had some awesome card designs.

I'm not sure what you meanm though about Yugi playing the seal. "They had a perfectly viable excuse to make Yugi play the seal, and they gave it to the wrong player."

What do you mean by that?

Regarding Haga, I think he should definitely return as someone evil. Ryuzaki I'm rather ambivalent to. I thought the dynamic the two had was a bit over the top and stupid, particularly in regards to Ryuzaki, but it doesn't strike me as too weird for him to have been lured by the prospect of more power, and have a grudge against Jou. Just don't make the two Bill and Ted, and it should be fine.

Yugi had a magic card that forced Rapheal to play a magic card in his hand if Yugi could guess its name. Yugi chose Necromancy, which Rapheal took when he exchanged it for his Seal of Orichalcos. Had they had given that card to Rapheal instead of Yugi, then you have a perfectly viable excuse for Yugi to play the Seal and not break his character.

Originally Posted by Ragna

Yugi had a magic card that forced Rapheal to play a magic card in his hand if Yugi could guess its name. Yugi chose Necromancy, which Rapheal took when he exchanged it for his Seal of Orichalcos. Had they had given that card to Rapheal instead of Yugi, then you have a perfectly viable excuse for Yugi to play the Seal and not break his character.

Ohhhhh. Well, it wouldn't really have been the same theme though, would it?

Since they're deliberately trying to have Atem go through this whole descent into darkness thing, they had to have him consciously make the choice. I don't think it was just about Yugi getting shoved off for the majority of the arc. They seriously wanted Atem to go through hell and basically redo all that growth he did regarding him and his pride, ala Duelist Kingdom.

Dark Yugi's actions after the seal was played would still leave him shaken and questioning his "inner darkness" that the seal brought out, and he would of course have the loss of Yugi on his shoulders. The plotline of Dark Yug valuing his pride over another's life was already addressed in Duelist Kingdom.

Originally Posted by Ragna

Dark Yugi's actions after the seal was played would still leave him shaken and questioning his "inner darkness" that the seal brought out, and he would of course have the loss of Yugi on his shoulders. The plotline of Dark Yug valuing his pride over another's life was already addressed in Duelist Kingdom.

I know.

But apparently they felt it wasn't "enough." You know how Doma is.

Look at Mai. They couldn't have just had her be brainwashed or evil, no. They had to literally have her do a complete 180 and devolve her character growth. Because it wasn't enough.

Since this topic is about a "remake" of DOMA to fit it in with the canon, I don't really see the problem.

Huh? Who said it'd be a problem?

I just wasn't sure what you meant and then started talking about the anime's bizarre direction. XD

Yakou's ace monster without the Devil Gods seemed to be Barbaros. No need for the Devil Gods to be around.

Oh right. Barbaros and Ur and Barbaros Ur. I wonder how I forgot about Barba-Ur. He's one of my favorite monsters. That would work very well with Yakou!Amelda shenanigans.

Also, Rafael forcing The Pharaoh seems Out of Character. He was an *******, but he seemed an "******* with honor" sort of guy. For some reason, I just don't see his personality and outright forcing the Seal's playing on the Pharaoh as cohesive together.

For some reason, I do like the idea, if we need Mai for some of the drive, that she's an unwilling addict in the situation against her will to torture the heroes. But then you get into how that's disrespectful to her character, but I think it's better than "lol, random Malik nightmares.".

Originally Posted by NeoArkadia

For some reason, I do like the idea, if we need Mai for some of the drive, that she's an unwilling addict in the situation against her will to torture the heroes. But then you get into how that's disrespectful to her character, but I think it's better than "lol, random Malik nightmares.".

Well, if anyone doesn't mind me speaking up... I remember someone here introduced the idea of having the duelists unable to live for very long after their souls were taken; going along with this idea: what if we had Mai being beaten by one of those Orichalcos duelists but then given the option to fight on the side of the Orichalcos in exchange for keeping her soul and remaining alive? That would be a pretty much coerce her into fighting the heroes, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

Look at Mai. They couldn't have just had her be brainwashed or evil, no. They had to literally have her do a complete 180 and devolve her character growth. Because it wasn't enough.

Now we know how James Cameron felt after Alien Cubed.

But yeah... it was completely out of nowhere, lacked any sort of basis in what we'd already seen, and served as nothing more than a conflict ball. Best just to cut Mai out altogether, or at least have her, as you said, brainwashed.

Originally Posted by cashman_11

-As I said in a previous post, making the fight of Kaiba and Yugi VS Dartz be a little more plausible, and not having a card with infinite ATK be summoned.

I don't think that Ge is that ridiculous. I mean, the series did have infinite attack effects and instant victory effects before, and a monster with a cost as high as Ge should better have something like infinite attack.
That said, the way it was defeated should definitely be fixed. Maybe it could be as simple as explaining better the loop between Critias and Hermos and having the 2 infinite attack monsters destroy each other. Or if we don't use the Knights, maybe even just have it destroyed by DKBMG effect(though that sounds kinda anticlimactic...).

Originally Posted by cag

I don't think that Ge is that ridiculous. I mean, the series did have infinite attack effects and instant victory effects before, and a monster with a cost as high as Ge should better have something like infinite attack.
That said, the way it was defeated should definitely be fixed. Maybe it could be as simple as explaining better the loop between Critias and Hermos and having the 2 infinite attack monsters destroy each other. Or if we don't use the Knights, maybe even just have it destroyed by DKBMG effect(though that sounds kinda anticlimactic...).

The only monster that ever had infinite attack was Obelisk, and that was only for ONE turn. One. Not forever. Ge is just utterly broken and overpowered. Not to mention the fact it has the absurd effect to let you somehow remain in the duel, EVEN if your life points are zero.

It breaks the game mechanics beyond anything plausible or believable. It's absurd. Infinite attack AND the ability to keep you from losing is retarded.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

The only monster that ever had infinite attack was Obelisk, and that was only for ONE turn. One. Not forever. Ge is just utterly broken and overpowered. Not to mention the fact it has the absurd effect to let you somehow remain in the duel, EVEN if your life points are zero.

It breaks the game mechanics beyond anything plausible or believable. It's absurd. Infinite attack AND the ability to keep you from losing is retarded.

It also doesn't seem to have any protection against card effects(though the third seal seems to cover that a bit), costs a your entire hand and all your Life Points(which have to be above 10000) to summon, and a quarter of your deck to attack. Exodia gives instant victory for argubly less. Also, main villains tend to have overpowered abilities, so I don't really see a problem with it.

Originally Posted by cag

It also doesn't seem to have any protection against card effects(though the third seal seems to cover that a bit), costs a your entire hand and all your Life Points(which have to be above 10000) to summon, and a quarter of your deck to attack. Exodia gives instant victory for argubly less. Also, main villains tend to have overpowered abilities, so I don't really see a problem with it.

Your life points don't have to be above 10,000 to summon him. All that has to happen is Shunoros is destroyed. It's a chain.

Kyotora turns into Shunoros. And then Shunoros turns into Ge. Nothing says your life points have to be above 10,000.

Even if you don't have enough cards in your deck to attack anymore, it won't matter. You CAN'T lose. The opponent will eventually be unable to do anything thanks to decking out, and thus they'll lose.

Considering that the whole Orichalcos barriers would protect Ge from anything, it's absurd. Yes, villains have overpowered abilities, but there's a limit. Dartz playing a card that says, "screw the rules, I win" is not interesting or good writing at all. Because then it made Atem basically have to meet his level of absurdity by one-upping him and play Relay Soul, another absurd card that shouldn't even exist. And of course we get those most bizarre infinite loop in YGO that no one even understands. The writers didn't even get it. Its stacking deus ex machina ontop of another in a chain of absurdity and derivative nonsense with no explanation.

Exodia at least requires you to draw each piece. It has a weakness, unless you cheat. So yes. It's a big problem.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

Your life points don't have to be above 10,000 to summon him. All that has to happen is Shunoros is destroyed. It's a chain.

Kyotora turns into Shunoros. And then Shunoros turns into Ge. Nothing says your life points have to be above 10,000.

Even if you don't have enough cards in your deck to attack anymore, it won't matter. You CAN'T lose. The opponent will eventually be unable to do anything thanks to decking out, and thus they'll lose.

Considering that the whole Orichalcos barriers would protect Ge from anything, it's absurd. Yes, villains have overpowered abilities, but there's a limit. Dartz playing a card that says, "screw the rules, I win" is not interesting or good writing at all. Because then it made Atem basically have to meet his level of absurdity by one-upping him and play Relay Soul, another absurd card that shouldn't even exist. And of course we get those most bizarre infinite loop in YGO that no one even understands. The writers didn't even get it. Its stacking deus ex machina ontop of another in a chain of absurdity and derivative nonsense with no explanation.

Exodia at least requires you to draw each piece. It has a weakness, unless you cheat. So yes. It's a big problem.

Well, the GoldenUmi subs don't mention it, and I don't understand Japanese, but I'm pretty sure that Dartz says "ichi man ijou no life" when he summons Ge, doesn't that mean over 10000 Life Points?

Not really, you'll still deck yourself out, and even with the seal, it's still vulnerable to monster effects.

Originally Posted by cag

Well, the GoldenUmi subs don't mention it, and I don't understand Japanese, but I'm pretty sure that Dartz says "ichi man ijou no life" when he summons Ge, doesn't that mean over 10000 Life Points?

Not really, you'll still deck yourself out, and even with the seal, it's still vulnerable to monster effects.

Nothing at all, ever says anything about Dartz needing his life points to be 10,000. I don't know what you're talking about, but no one has ever said that, and it's been around for years in Japanese and English. So yeah. It's not a requirement.

Deck out doesn't matter. It's effect prevents you from ever losing the duel. So all that'll basically happen is you'll just stand there until the opponent decks out or dies.

It's vulnerable to monster effects but umm. That doesn't make it anymore balanced AT ALL. It has 1 vulnerability but is perfect in almost every single way. Uh, no. Not fair. It's just plain stupid. Stupid beyond acceptance. It brought down the entire duel to a level of random nonsense.

I just watched that part again, and he definitely says that. The HK subs, as unrelyable as they are, mention that too.

I'm pretty sure that the not losing part only refers to Life Points, I don't think that Dartz mentions that he can't lose at all as long as Ge is on the field.

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_Serpent

I would count this as a reliable source (Right?). Since its effect reduces your hand and LP to 0, it would need the effect of not losing. Plus, it's on the effect on the site as well.

Originally Posted by cag

I just watched that part again, and he definitely says that. The HK subs, as unrelyable as they are, mention that too.

I'm pretty sure that the not losing part only refers to Life Points, I don't think that Dartz mentions that he can't lose at all as long as Ge is on the field.

Dude what the hell are you talking about?

I'm watching the episode right now. I will quote it verbatim to you, and GoldenUmi translated this, and knows what he's doing.

"Evil God Ge. This is the strongest servant I have. The very moment Orichalcos Shunoros' attack power reaches zero... I can give up all of my life points as well as every card in my hand in order to special summon it. *Dartz's life points go do down to zero* My life in turn is eliminated. And as soon as my servant is destroyed, I automatically accept defeat. However its attack power is (infinity.) There was never any hope for the likes of yourself to defeat me from the very start."

Now I have no clue what subs or whatever you are watching. But this is what has been currently translated right here and now by GoldenUmi. It never says anything like that. He never says anything about only not losing in regards to life points. He won't be defeated until that thing gets destroyed.

The HK bootlegs say, in their mangled way, "I'll offer more than 10000 Life Points" and it definitely sounds like Dartz says "ichi man ijou no life" as part of the cost.
He only says that If Ge is destroyed he loses, as far as I can tell, that only refers to the fact that he has 0 Life Points and therefore should lose. He doesn't seem to mention that he's immune to any other way of losing.

Originally Posted by cag

The HK bootlegs say, in their mangled way, "I'll offer more than 10000 Life Points" and it definitely sounds like Dartz says "ichi man ijou no life" as part of the cost.
He only says that If Ge is destroyed he loses, as far as I can tell, that only refers to the fact that he has 0 Life Points and therefore should lose. He doesn't seem to mention that he's immune to any other way of losing.

I'm telling you right now, that's wrong. The site that even used the HK bootlegs never mention it. Read it yourself, and this guy knows Japanese. He's able to make heads or tails of the mangled subs and again. Nothing says anything about that. You're wrong, and I don't know how else to say it. That's not the card's requirement. The episode's been around for eight years. You'd think someone would've said that if that were the case.

If the guy isn't losing due to his life points being zero, then what makes you think he'd lose in any other form or fashion? Ge's effect is continuous and literally alters the entire rules of the duel. It's a victory condition that cannot be stopped unless the effect goes through. So I don't understand how the game loss of deck out would go around an effect that already states that the only way Dartz could lose is if it hits the field. It's identical to Kiryu's Infernity Zero. As long as it exists, you cannot lose the duel.

Cannot lose the duel.

I don't know, that's definitely what it sounds like, and the bootlegs seem to mention it. Maybe someone else can clearify?

What makes you think he wouldn't? He doesn't say that he can't lose as long as it's there, only that if it's destroyed he loses, and the context clearly refers to the fact that he has no more Life Points. He doesn't mention immunity to any other way of losing.
Just like losing your Deck Master in the Noah Arc means that you lose doesn't mean that you can't lose in any other way.

Originally Posted by cag

I don't know, that's definitely what it sounds like, and the bootlegs seem to mention it. Maybe someone else can clearify?

What makes you think he wouldn't? He doesn't say that he can't lose as long as it's there, only says that if it's destroyed he loses, and the context clearly refers to the fact that he has no more Life Points. He doesn't mention immunity to any other way of losing.
Just like losing your Deck Master in the Noah Arc means that you lose doesn't mean that you can't lose in any other way.

Because it's a win condition effect, and if there was some sort of loop hole regarding Ge allowing him to lose in any other way, then the anime would've mentioned it. They wouldn't leave such an important element regarding the card out of its explanation, especially considering we don't see the physical card at all, thus we can't read it.

They actually MENTIONED losing your deck master was an automatic lose. They didn't just neglect to say anything about that fact. So that's an irrelevant comparison.

Not really, if it gave him immunity to other lose conditions that would have been mentioned.
And? It's nearly the same thing here, just because Ge's destruction means that he loses doesn't mean that he's immune to other ways of losing.

Originally Posted by cag

Not really, if it gave him immunity to other lose conditions that would have been mentioned.
And? It's nearly the same thing here, just because Ge's destruction means that he loses doesn't mean that he's immune to other ways of losing.

That makes no logical sense. Why would they not reveal all of the card's effect or the weaknesses of it. Dartz shared the weakness relevant to the plot, so why would any others remain? It makes no sense within the context of the story.

It is not the same thing. Again. It was fully explained. They didn't just half ass the explanation of the deck master system. What you're saying, is that the story basically didn't tell the whole truth regarding what Divine Serpent covers, and there's no reason to think so. If he could lose any other way outside of it being destroyed, then it'd have been mentioned. If its continuous effect states you can't lose the duel until its defeated, then that's what it means.

Why? As far as I can tell Ge and Relay Soul only replace the Life Point condition, there's no reason to believe that they do anything to other conditions. If it's effect meant that he can only lose by Ge's destruction and not in any other way, that would have been mentioned. But it isn't mentioned, the only thing that he says is that he loses if Ge is destroyed. In fact, what would be the point of having such a huge cost for attacking if deckout is not a problem? That was a clearly a way to somewhat balance the card.

Originally Posted by cag

Why? As far as I can tell Ge and Relay Soul only replace the Life Point condition, there's no reason to believe that they do anything to other conditions. If it's effect meant that he can only lose by Ge's destruction and not in any other way, that would have been mentioned. But it isn't mentioned, the only thing that he says is that he loses if Ge is destroyed. In fact, what would be the point of having such a huge cost for attacking if deckout is not a problem? That was a clearly a way to somewhat balance the card.

No. Relay Soul does not just replace the life point condition.

Relay Soul-Normal Trap

Activate only when your Life Points would become 0. Select 1 Monster Card in your hand. When your Life Points become 0, Special Summon that monster. While it is face-up on the field, you cannot lose the Duel.

"You cannot lose the Duel." Do you understand that means you can't lose by any means? That's all there is to it. They have the same effect, dude. So again. He can't lose by deck out. They would've stated that.

蛇神ゲー．．．これぞ我が最強のしもべ
オレイカルコス・シュノロスの攻撃力が０になった時、１００００以上のライフとすべての手札を捧げ特殊召喚される。私のライフは消滅しゲーが破壊された時、私の敗北となる。

"Serpent God Ge...This is my mightiest of servants. When Orichalcos Shunoros' attack power drops to 0, it Special Summons itself by giving up over 10000 Life Points and my entire hand. My Life Points are now gone and when Ge is destroyed, I will lose."

Therefore...

『効果』
「オレイカルコス・シュノロス」と名の付いたモンスターの攻撃力が０になった時に自分のライフポイントが１ ００００以上だった場合、すべての手札を墓地に捨ててこのカードを手札から特殊召喚する事が出来る。このカ ードが攻撃宣言した時、自分のデッキの一番上から１０枚カードを墓地に送らなければならない。このカードが フィールドに存在しなくなった時、このカードの持ち主はデュエルに敗北する。

Effect:
"When an "Orichalcos Shunoros'" ATK is reduced to 0 and your Life Points are 10000 or more, you can discard your entire hand and Special Summon this card from your hand. When this card declares an attack, you must send 10 cards from the top of your deck to the Graveyard. When this card is removed from the field, this card's owner loses the Duel."

Originally Posted by Tatsunoboshi Horoko

蛇神ゲー．．．これぞ我が最強のしもべ
オレイカルコス・シュノロスの攻撃力が０になった時、１００００以上のライフとすべての手札を捧げ特殊召喚される。私のライフは消滅しゲーが破壊された時、私の敗北となる。

"Serpent God Ge...This is my mightiest of servants. When Orichalcos Shunoros' attack power drops to 0, it Special Summons itself by giving up over 10000 Life Points and my entire hand. My Life Points are now gone and when Ge is destroyed, I will lose."

Therefore...

『効果』
「オレイカルコス・シュノロス」と名の付いたモンスターの攻撃力が０になった時に自分のライフポイントが１ ００００以上だった場合、すべての手札を墓地に捨ててこのカードを手札から特殊召喚する事が出来る。このカ ードが攻撃宣言した時、自分のデッキの一番上から１０枚カードを墓地に送らなければならない。このカードが フィールドに存在しなくなった時、このカードの持ち主はデュエルに敗北する。

Effect:
"When an "Orichalcos Shunoros'" ATK is reduced to 0 and your Life Points are 10000 or more, you can discard your entire hand and Special Summon this card from your hand. When this card declares an attack, you must send 10 cards from the top of your deck to the Graveyard. When this card is removed from the field, this card's owner loses the Duel."

Well I guess I have to eat my own head now.

What the heck though, nothing ever said anything about that in the subs or....anywhere. I guess GoldenUmi made a mistake?

I was literally quoting the exact subtitles in the episode. Oh well, I was wrong apparently. Thanks for the clarification.

Phew, I was afraid I'm going crazy and hearing things. Thanks for the clarification!

Considering that Dartz's deck functions as a means to get his life points well over 10,000, its not that much of a cost anyways. The whole Orichalcos barriers work in-tandem with each other, so calling it a cost is really hard to swallow.

Well, that's true. I don't claim that Dartz's is not overpowered. Just that he's not alone in it.

Well he's certainly the most overpowered.

Well even if he is the most overpowered(though I'm not sure he's more overpowered than say, Bakura the cheating killer Game Master or Zorc) it's probably because he had to face Kaiba and Atem at once. If you change it to one on one he'll probably be less overpowered.