Thread: The Mechanics and Mysticism of Cards and Duel Monsters

Before I read the opening post, I just want to reply to LeArk's "I can understand why people get pissy at the non-egypt stuff" post.

I don't think it's really the detour from Egypt that people mind, but the blatant undermining of the original content, like Atlantis being the "true" origin of Duel Monsters and there being a Duel Monsters World.

The Signer dragons were their own mythos and were reincarnated by the Crimson Dragon every 5000 years to do battle with the evil gods. It just so happens that THIS TIME they came back as cards. That's perfectly fine. It doesn't contradict the manga and it isn't too "out there" to destroy the suspension of disbelief.

Oh, and continuing from Blood Mephist. It is a good theory about its chip being programed wrong, but after Hell Kaiser's heart problems went from being the believable shock collars to the evil Cyber Dark cards, you can't underestimate NAS.

EDIT: Okay, added all of our posts from the preview thread. I hope I haven't missed anyone...

Regarding Atlantis, (although I don't know the actual context because I haven't fully watched the Doma arc, derp) perhaps it was Dartz being arrogant about his own civilization, or believing they were superior?

As for Blood Mephist and the Cyber Darks, perhaps it's possible to contain an evil spirit via artificial means? I mean, the God cards obviously stand above the ink and paper, perhaps these lesser spirits would be more influential than a normal monster spirit. And Illiaster could have easily had those cards designed, and their technology could have easily enhanced Blood Mephist and the other cards. Although that doesn't explain the Cyber Darks. But similarly, they could have been designed behind Pegasus' back via illegal means.

Like, there may have been more malevolent spirits Pegasus didn't want to touch. Perhaps that was the reason Pegasus avoided cards focusing too much on power? (Or he just didn't like cookie cutter cards.)

Well, cards like Blood Mephist having bad chips is a good explaination, but the Cyber Darks are something else enitrely. They act like malicious DM spirits, but we never actually see them do anything out of theordinary until season four where it was revealed that the shock you with tiny black lightning when you draw them, or something like that. I only saw those episodes once. lol

The anime's introduction of Duel Monster spirits are pretty much the biggest contradiction in the series. Outside force like the Light of Destruction infecting Bloo-D are much easier to swallow.

Blood Mephist, if it never existed this topic would probably not be here. Was it a card of darkness like Hook-Knight? One could assume it was, but from what I have been hearing, it isn't. So what is it? I don't see how a messed up chip can turn it into a living monster (or create real damage). Perhaps it has to do with BFD getting ready to emerge, it gave BM real powers to enhance Crow's awareness. If anything, BM was part of shitty filler meant to promote Shinning Darkness and give Crow a dragon. Why should it tear apart the mythos?

Perhaps some spirits are more malevolent than others, or their method of malevolence differs? Cards like Blood Mephist and Hidden Knight - Hook would rely on inflicting real damage to the player. The Cyber Darks could be something passive, on the other hand.

It's not really about a "bad" chip, it's more about the mystical information stored in the IC chip (which is a black box in itself). It could have been manipulated or created in a way which produced the harmful Cards of Darkness. Or as I said, those spirits could have been more malevolent than an average monster.

Regarding the Duel Monster spirits, I could see one explanation for their existence. This could be far-fetched, but I'm giving it a try.

First of all, we have only seen Egypt's perspective on the monster spirits -- namely, they believed that evil monsters inhabited the hearts of men which must be sealed away. We know that a human contains their own soul and the monster's spirit separately, unless they fuse somehow, like Kisara's or Mahado's case. We know some monsters ended up in the stone tablets by getting them sealed up, but what happens the rest of the monster spirits? Where do they go? Seeing how death and the afterlife plays an important part in the series (Pegasus and Cyndia, Atem and the Afterlife), the monster spirits wouldn't just vanish somewhere. They'd have to end up in some place.

We know that some spirits are more sentient than the others (Dark Magician, Dark Magician Girl, Blue-Eyes, Winged Kuriboh and to some extent, Red-Eyes) or capable of acting on their own entirely (Egyptian God Cards). We know that a person's personality seems to form the monster inside them, alternately, it could be that person's personality manifesting or somehow gaining an existence of its own, in the form of a monster. In Ancient Egypt, one could see a monster inside a person with the Millennium Key's help, yet when Shadi did the same, a Soul Room would represent the person's mind. (I've always found this bit interesting.)

And so, these monster spirits ended up in the Duel Monster dimensions. Kind of an afterlife of their own, working with rules entirely different from the human world (and the human afterlife). The ability of monsters and humans being able to cross into each others' worlds could be attributed to the Duel Monster cards, which serve as a link of sort to both worlds.

Of course, that doesn't explain why a Duel Monster uses a Duel Disk in their own world and summon themselves... it's like a "picture inside a picture inside a picture" situation, fff.

On which note, what about people like Kisara or Mahado, whose souls fused with their inner monsters (or well, ka)? They are quite fascinating from this topic's point. Then there's also Yubel herself, and eventually Judai with his fusion with Yubel. However, Yubel and Judai seem to originate from some elsewhere world, where rules could be once again different.

So, as I said, we have only seen Egypt's side of the monster spirits -- the whole Duel Monsters world thing could be something they didn't think or believe of. There's... not really anything contradicting that fact, is there?

Darkness mentions how Duel Monsters is the origin of the world, but that doesn't mean he was literal about a piece of cardboard being the source of the world. The concept could be derived from alchemy. (One of Daitokuji's sentences sound quite similar to how Darkness described Duel Monsters.) Besides, we don't really know what Duel Monsters is - we're led to believe they are monsters, but with the cards' importance gaining a bigger and bigger importance in people's lives... Perhaps we just can't grasp their true form.

Darkness also mentions how Duel Monsters reflect people's hearts, which matches up with Takahashi's intent with the cards representing their owners' personality.

I'm not sure to be on topic but I try.

Perhaps Cyberdarks and Blood Mephisto had been created by people who wishes do evil by their own way. I think to Ryugi's father who, trying to destroy Millenium Puzzle, never succeded to do it with his hands. But when he send his angry, his pain and all his others bad feelings he feeling to Sugoroku to the puzzle via his mind, pieces of the puzzle started to detach oneself from it. So his mind had got an impact on MP. This way to think can be adapted to Duel Monsters: Psychics Duelists inflicts damage because they are angry, feel pain... Conciously or not. In the case of Divine, he knows why,the reasons, he inflicts damages and however, he don't hesitate to train people to they inflicts damage like him do.

For example, Blood Mephisto had been created with several cards who inflits real damage to players at the same moment according the security. These cards could would have been created volontarily: according the Security this phenomen stop after a moment. If al these cards inflicts damage and was created during the same period, It's necessarily the creator neiter single, unique, neither a little group of persons. This or these person(s), to create them, know necessarily origins and legends of Duel Monsters. If it was a ramdom person(s) who wishes only do evil with DM, card creations would have contnued.

Originally Posted by Arynis

Regarding Atlantis, (although I don't know the actual context because I haven't fully watched the Doma arc, derp) perhaps it was Dartz being arrogant about his own civilization, or believing they were superior?

Considering we actually see Atlanean spirits, that doesn't make sense.

As for Blood Mephist and the Cyber Darks, perhaps it's possible to contain an evil spirit via artificial means? I mean, the God cards obviously stand above the ink and paper, perhaps these lesser spirits would be more influential than a normal monster spirit. And Illiaster could have easily had those cards designed, and their technology could have easily enhanced Blood Mephist and the other cards. Although that doesn't explain the Cyber Darks. But similarly, they could have been designed behind Pegasus' back via illegal means.

The Cyberdarks have a very strange nature to them. I'll go back to the nature of a Deck; many people, Honest included, have mentioned that the soul and emotions of a player are reflected by their Deck. Hell Kaiser, while using the Cyberdraks, is writhing in hatred and sadistic rage.

Originally Posted by cohenmarioman

Blood Mephist, if it never existed this topic would probably not be here. Was it a card of darkness like Hook-Knight? One could assume it was, but from what I have been hearing, it isn't. So what is it? I don't see how a messed up chip can turn it into a living monster (or create real damage). Perhaps it has to do with BFD getting ready to emerge, it gave BM real powers to enhance Crow's awareness. If anything, BM was part of shitty filler meant to promote Shinning Darkness and give Crow a dragon. Why should it tear apart the mythos?

It would appear that the Cards of Darkness - Hidden Knight Hook (although due to the "fu" existing instead of "hu", sounds like the f-word) and Doom's Ray - are designed by Placido and must call upon Zone's power. Blood Mephist doesn't seem like one of them. But, keep in mind, cards like Blood Mephist and Sacred Scriptures of Wickedness have been around for some time. The latter could even channel human sacrifices. Again, I put it down to manifesting the darkness of their users.

@ Allana: Wasn't Otogi's father just punished by the Millennium Puzzle, ala "The soul of an useless human will be burned"? And well, just Atem's spirit being "Get off me" at him.

@ DarkDust: Hmm, okay, let me try again. XD In that case, couldn't Dartz just feel superior because the spirits appeared in Atlantis first? Considering he hated Atem so much, might as well rub it in somehow.

(I guess I'm better off with asking in which episode he talked about his land's history and watch it. orz)

Regarding the Cyber Darks, that would make sense. Alternately, some monsters reflect their owners more, resulting in their enhanced effects.

Originally Posted by Arynis

@ DarkDust: Hmm, okay, let me try again. XD In that case, couldn't Dartz just feel superior because the spirits appeared in Atlantis first? Considering he hated Atem so much, might as well rub it in somehow.

(I guess I'm better off with asking in which episode he talked about his land's history and watch it. orz)

'Tis possible; but it doesn't seem within Dartz' character to do something like that. He's too methodical, even with the occasional Yugioh Roulette.

Regarding the Cyber Darks, that would make sense. Alternately, some monsters reflect their owners more, resulting in their enhanced effects.

Very true. Look at Neos. It reflects Judai's every emotion. hen he was screaming about his friends' "deaths" and had yellow eyes, Neos was growling. In other scenes, it makes other noises.

You really have to see all of DM, to fully understand the context Arynis. Dartz wasn't the only one asserting that Atlantis was the predated source of Duel Monsters. Professor Hopkins, also discovered the Atlantean ruins that clearly showed and verified that Duel Monsters had even predated Egypt. And yes, we even see the spirits living side by side with the Atlantean people in the anime.

I won't go into the logistical and canon breaking problems this presents to the story, because previous posters have gotten to it succinctly. What I will talk about, is how this leads to there being a Duel Monsters spirit world, which I think is completely, and utterly stupid and contradictory.

The sheer premise that every single card that's designed in YGO, is based on a spirit that exists in a parallel universe is completely illogical and unbelievable to begin with. The original premise of Duel Monsters was that the originating monsters that were designed previously, came from the Egyptian designs and images found by Pegasus Crawford. The tie in to the card game right there, was that numerous cards were based on mythological monsters that came from these images. Following that, Pegasus had taken designs from other cultures and mythologies, such as Japan, with the Spirit series of monsters, in the anime. Various other supernatural designs were involved in YGO's creation, but its roots as a game were never ignored.

Machine type monsters were never attributed to an ancient mythological source. Nor were monsters such as Louise/Beaver Warrior. There was never any confusion in that regard, until the anime. Certain cards do have spirits or connections to supernatural occurrences. But not all of them fell in that category. Until Doma appeared.

The fact that there's a parallel world where Duel Monsters live does not mesh with the origin of the story. The spirits that inhabit the cards or are connected to them, are the spirits of ka, that have been extracted from people by the Priests of Egypt. These spirits, sealed in stone within the Temple of Wdjat, were the basis of the Games of Darkness that the wielders of the Millennium Item used in their battles. Now with this origin in mind, how this reconciles with spirits coming from another dimension through a card makes absolutely no sense. Nor does it reconcile with the origin of Dark Magician and Dark Magician Girl being the spirits of Mahad and Mana, either. But there you have it, right there. Two contradictory origins, side by side, within the same story.

GX takes this bizarre concept even further, showing us that not only is there one Duel Monsters world, there are twelve. Why? We don't know. But not only does every single card, have some spirit, but even cards that have no connection whatsoever to anything mystical, have a spirit. Jerry Beans Man? Really, guys?

It's completely nosensical. The theme of YGO originally was that all cards in the end have a heart. Not just because of some ancient magical hocus pocus, but also because after awhile, a duelist's soul eventually pours itself into their cards as well. Giving them a life and heart of their own. When Yugi's Dark Magician and Pandora's Dark Magician squared off, their souls as duelists clashed. Arcana's Dark Magician had a heart of its own, and reflected Pandora's twisted personality. Yet, even then, it felt pain and betrayal when it was mistreated and used by its owner.

The Dark Magician used by Pandora was not the same as Yugi's who embodied Priest Mahad. Yet again, it was given a soul, so to speak. A personality. This came from the duelist. The same goes for Red Eyes, when it felt pain and sadness, seeing its owner being used by Malik.

The anime took a subtle concept that belonged to the manga, and misunderstood it, or purposefully drove it into the ground. Within the context of GX, we have no reason or understanding, as to why the Cyberdarks are inherently evil and malevolent. We have no idea what this "spirit" is. Calling it a mere reflection of Hell Kaiser, doesn't work because Sho too, feels this pain and is vulnerable to the severe health effects using these cards brings. Princepal Sanejima also had the cards sealed away due to their danger. So clearly there was some force behind these cards that made them dangerous before Hell Kaiser touched them.

The Neo-Spacians and E-Hero Neos are also an anomaly. They were created by a young Judai as entries in a card design contest. Yet, somehow, when they were rocketed into space inside a Time Capsule, they became "real?" And not just real, oh no. They even have their own galaxy! Again, you can't attribute this level of reality to the previous DM concept of the duelist giving their cards life and heart. Unless one believes that Judai literally created the entire Neo-Spacian universe and conflicts between himself, the Neo-Spacians, and the galaxy's fight against the Light of Destruction, it just doesn't work. There's a schism.

It makes no sense, whatsoever. The concept was clearly derailed, and turned into a cliche. It's no different than other toynetic collectible card game/monster hunting anime such as Digimon, Bakugan, and whatever's out there now. It did the story a disservice.

I won't fully go into the artificial cards of darkness that appear in 5Ds. They leave a bad taste in my mouth, but going by LeArk's, and the show's explanation, they aren't too far from the realm of possibility within the franchise. If the cards are supposedly glitched in terms of their manifestation through the Momentum powered Solid Vision, then yes. They can definitely be dangerous. I would say that the otherworldly power source that is Momentum, would also play a huge role in how dangerous certain glitched cards would be as well. Seeing as how Bruno explained that Momentum can manifest and reflect the hearts and intentions of whoever controls it.

The Egyptian Gods are an entirely different monster to begin with. They're gods. They aren't mere cards at all. Same goes for the Earthbound Gods as well. And I guess by that token, the Sacred Beasts. *shudders*

Also the Wicked Gods of YGO R, are manifested false god dopplegangers, made by Pegasus, that serve as a counterbalance to the power of the Egyptian Gods. They serve as the inverse of the Gods, and because of that, are inherently evil and demonic. While the Egyptian Gods are Divine and good. Pegasus's creation of these cards with the use of the Millennium Eye spawned demonic inverses of Egyptian God, and that was the supernatural base of their creation.

I think the fact that every single card in Duel Monsters, being some sort of stupid spirit of whatever, is just, more often than not, a bad idea. The perspective GX tried to take with card spirits was put in much better perspective and context, in its manga. Not all cards have spirits in them. But the ones that do, are usually special in some way. And in the end, isn't that how it should be? If every card has a super, special, mystical spirit in it, that kind of detracts from the uniqueness of the concept, doesn't it?

EDIT: I missed this part, but I think this rebuttal is rather important to show how contradictory these concepts are.

And so, these monster spirits ended up in the Duel Monster dimensions. Kind of an afterlife of their own, working with rules entirely different from the human world (and the human afterlife). The ability of monsters and humans being able to cross into each others' worlds could be attributed to the Duel Monster cards, which serve as a link of sort to both worlds.

If that's the case, why do Mahad and Mana (Dark Magician and Dark Magician Girl) go to the afterlife with all the other Priests when they finally are able to pass on with Atem? They pass on to a very human afterlife along with other human spirits. Yet they've been relegated to a Duel Monster Spirit existence previously, waiting for Atem's soul to come back.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

What I will talk about, is how this leads to there being a Duel Monsters spirit world, which I think is completely, and utterly stupid and contradictory.

A lot of things in fiction condratict each other, Makoeyes. Sometimes, there's no alternative but to roll with them.

The sheer premise that every single card that's designed in YGO, is based on a spirit that exists in a parallel universe is completely illogical and unbelievable to begin with. The original premise of Duel Monsters was that the originating monsters that were designed previously, came from the Egyptian designs and images found by Pegasus Crawford. The tie in to the card game right there, was that numerous cards were based on mythological monsters that came from these images. Following that, Pegasus had taken designs from other cultures and mythologies, such as Japan, with the Spirit series of monsters, in the anime. Various other supernatural designs were involved in YGO's creation, but its roots as a game were never ignored.

Machine type monsters were never attributed to an ancient mythological source. Nor were monsters such as Louise/Beaver Warrior. There was never any confusion in that regard, until the anime. Certain cards do have spirits or connections to supernatural occurrences. But not all of them fell in that category. Until Doma appeared.

This is true.

The fact that there's a parallel world where Duel Monsters live does not mesh with the origin of the story. The spirits that inhabit the cards or are connected to them, are the spirits of ka, that have been extracted from people by the Priests of Egypt. These spirits, sealed in stone within the Temple of Wdjat, were the basis of the Games of Darkness that the wielders of the Millennium Item used in their battles. Now with this origin in mind, how this reconciles with spirits coming from another dimension through a card makes absolutely no sense. Nor does it reconcile with the origin of Dark Magician and Dark Magician Girl being the spirits of Mahad and Mana, either. But there you have it, right there. Two contradictory origins, side by side, within the same story.

You do realize that it's possible that people previousy did not know about that, right? If I find that I have a layer of plaster under the paint on my walls, did the plaster come to be at that very moment? Of course not; but that's when I discovered it.

GX takes this bizarre concept even further, showing us that not only is there one Duel Monsters world, there are twelve. Why? We don't know. But not only does every single card, have some spirit, but even cards that have no connection whatsoever to anything mystical, have a spirit. Jerry Beans Man? Really, guys?

That was probably the writers at NAS sitting around a table passing around a joint and going, "*sucking noise* Yeah, that'll work. *Cough*"

It's completely nosensical. The theme of YGO originally was that all cards in the end have a heart. Not just because of some ancient magical hocus pocus, but also because after awhile, a duelist's soul eventually pours itself into their cards as well.

Which is exactly what I was getting at earlier. The cards may or may not inherently have power; but as a projection of their masters, they gain new power. It just so happens that some characters have very strong emotions or feelings, so their monsters become more powerful.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

A lot of things in fiction condratict each other, Makoeyes. Sometimes, there's no alternative but to roll with them.

A lot of fictional stories suck too. That doesn't excuse it.

You do realize that it's possible that people previousy did not know about that, right? If I find that I have a layer of plaster under the paint on my walls, did the plaster come to be at that very moment? Of course not; but that's when I discovered it.

That's a contradiction though, and you know it. It does not mesh nor reconcile with the previously established facts or mythology introduced within the manga. The fact this new revelation is inconsistent AND contradictory to the original canon is what makes this anime addition so offensive.

That was probably the writers at NAS sitting around a table passing around a joint and going, "*sucking noise* Yeah, that'll work. *Cough*"

Exactly. That's the best description of their writing sessions, ever.

Which is exactly what I was getting at earlier. The cards may or may not inherently have power; but as a projection of their masters, they gain new power. It just so happens that some characters have very strong emotions or feelings, so their monsters become more powerful.

That'd work if that were the case, but that is not how it's presented by the anime at all. The Crystal Beasts belonging to Johan were clearly magical, and showed themselves to Johan and Pegasus, to prove that he was their rightful master. Johan didn't give those cards power. They had power before he even used them.

My personal thought is that Blood Mephist and its ilk were possibly the design of experimental research on the whole Hard Light component of Solid Vision. Either by design or accident, they probably broke whatever safeties the game had (Whether in their chip, the KC central server, or safeties in the Duel Disk itself) and made the Hard Light hit actually Hard, since Solid Vision implies the holograms have actual substance.

I'd of extrapolated Hook and Doom's Ray were just cards on a similar design by Luciano's hax illegal printing powers. They could be. But the whole vanishing blank thing kinda moots that to a point... though if you want to be pants on your head crazy... it could of been a security detail to prevent them from being identified or traced.

GX takes this bizarre concept even further, showing us that not only is there one Duel Monsters world, there are twelve. Why? We don't know. But not only does every single card, have some spirit, but even cards that have no connection whatsoever to anything mystical, have a spirit. Jerry Beans Man? Really, guys?

This is a play on String Theory. Engine Sentai Go-onger had a similar thing, up to and including "Christmas World" I think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane_cosmology

And before anyone screams Yoshida for this mess in GX, I'll remind you Takegami was behind the season 3 arc. The guy behind the writing of DM's scenario planning from Episode 1 up until the end of Noa Kaiba arc.

-------------

As to Duel Spirit Worlds themselves:
I never have the problem with alternate worlds full of supernatural creatures. Mythologies throughout the world often refer to Underworlds, Heavens, and Otherworlds where strange mysterious entities exist.

- The Celts and the Irish had the Otherworld ruled by their Gods and the Fair Folk.
- The Indians had their various realms of Asuras, Gods, Devas, and the like.
- The Norse had the 9 worlds of which Midgard, the world of men, was but a mere part, where Giants, Dark Elves, Elves, Dragons, and Gods also lay.
- Hell, classic Arab tales speaks of a realm of the (D)Jinn, entities made of spirit, but were given the Free Will of Men by Allah.

The big thing that really hurts the execution of it throughout DM, GX, and 5D's is simple: The writers for whatever reason, seem to blindly go to the writings of John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, Clive Staples Lewis, and Gary Gygax for their inspiration of alternate universes. If you know who I mean, the big problem with this angle becomes glaringly obvious in an almost immediate manner.

Duel Monsters using cards is just down right bizarre, though I think the Gravekeepers had a reason for it back in the first arc: "People who ended up in our world also ended up bringing cards"... though why a full Gravekeeper's Deck, that sort of requires us to put on our party hats and not think too hard.

Yet, somehow, when they were rocketed into space inside a Time Capsule, they became "real?" And not just real, oh no. They even have their own galaxy!

Cosmic Rays was the excuse, I believe, which means Pegasus really has some interesting ways he makes those damn cards if so. And I'd like to know when Jupiter and its moons became their own galaxy. Though, that whole malarky could be attributed to Haou/Gentle Darkness power inherent in Juudai.

The big problem is GX is so heavy on alchemy and Peruvian ancient religion symbolism and allegory, that it ends up running into "Pants on Head" Logic when it tries to execute them into an actual story. Also GX I think was intended for a younger audience then DM was. So.

That'd work if that were the case, but that is not how it's presented by the anime at all. The Crystal Beasts belonging to Johan were clearly magical, and showed themselves to Johan and Pegasus, to prove that he was their rightful master. Johan didn't give those cards power. They had power before he even used them.

By the power of Julius Caesar!

Ok, I got lost when I went to Dinner. Have we made any ground yet? Because it seems we're going back and forth with this "logistics of anime cards inflicting real damage" and whatnot.

Originally Posted by cohenmarioman

Ok, I got lost when I went to Dinner. Have we made any ground yet? Because it seems we're going back and forth with this "logistics of anime cards inflicting real damage" and whatnot.

Dunno, I just joined in, so I might of set us back.

The big things are:

A) I don't have clear access to earlier chapters/episodes where Takahashi might of gone into detail about Solid Vision. And.

B) Let's all be honest, Mr. Takahashi is a writer first and foremost. He used Solid Vision as an excuse/medium to continue having life size monsters punch each other to keep his comic book running every week. He's a very nice man, but I do not think he's an expert in Holographic Technology and Hard Light. So. Yeah. We're going to be running around here for a while.

Well, this might help.

http://www.onemanga.com/Yu-Gi-Oh/

Read them while you can

Originally Posted by LeArk

My personal thought is that Blood Mephist and its ilk were possibly the design of experimental research on the whole Hard Light component of Solid Vision. Either by design or accident, they probably broke whatever safeties the game had (Whether in their chip, the KC central server, or safeties in the Duel Disk itself) and made the Hard Light hit actually Hard, since Solid Vision implies the holograms have actual substance.

Agreed. That's about the best explanation, for it.

I'd of extrapolated Hook and Doom's Ray were just cards on a similar design by Luciano's hax illegal printing powers. They could be. But the whole vanishing blank thing kinda moots that to a point... though if you want to be pants on your head crazy... it could of been a security detail to prevent them from being identified or traced.

That's possible as well. Whatever technology they use, could just be that far advanced.

This is a play on String Theory. Engine Sentai Go-onger had a similar thing, up to and including "Christmas World" I think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane_cosmology

And before anyone screams Yoshida for this mess in GX, I'll remind you Takegami was behind the season 3 arc. The guy behind the writing of DM's scenario planning from Episode 1 up until the end of Noa Kaiba arc.

Huh. Well go figure. Still doesn't change the fact it was balls stupid though.

And they can't all be winners sadly.

As to Duel Spirit Worlds themselves:
I never have the problem with alternate worlds full of supernatural creatures. Mythologies throughout the world often refer to Underworlds, Heavens, and Otherworlds where strange mysterious entities exist.

- The Celts and the Irish had the Otherworld ruled by their Gods and the Fair Folk.
- The Indians had their various realms of Asuras, Gods, Devas, and the like.
- The Norse had the 9 worlds of which Midgard, the world of men, was but a mere part, where Giants, Dark Elves, Elves, Dragons, and Gods also lay.
- Hell, classic Arab tales speaks of a realm of the (D)Jinn, entities made of spirit, but were given the Free Will of Men by Allah.

That's all well and good, but we're not told, hinted, or given any sort of history, that these entities, ka, reside in any parallel universe or whatever to our own.

The monsters reside in us. They are reflections of our souls. They are ka. They aren't spirits from another world.

The big thing that really hurts the execution of it throughout DM, GX, and 5D's is simple: The writers for whatever reason, seem to blindly go to the writings of John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, Clive Staples Lewis, and Gary Gygax for their inspiration of alternate universes. If you know who I mean, the big problem with this angle becomes glaringly obvious in an almost immediate manner.

Have they actually state stated they draw inspiration from them? Really? Because if so, they could seriously work on their execution then.

Duel Monsters using cards is just down right bizarre, though I think the Gravekeepers had a reason for it back in the first arc: "People who ended up in our world also ended up bringing cards"... though why a full Gravekeeper's Deck, that sort of requires us to put on our party hats and not think too hard.

I wasn't even gonna bring that up, because that's just too obvious. It's like kicking a man when he's down. The fact that the Dark World Monsters were...wielding themselves just shattered whatever credence I was gonna give that arc. If it wasn't for Yubel, the dueling zombies, and the lulz, I'd have hated that season, full stop. It's just too borked and insane.

Cosmic Rays was the excuse, I believe, which means Pegasus really has some interesting ways he makes those damn cards if so. And I'd like to know when Jupiter and its moons became their own galaxy. Though, that whole malarky could be attributed to Haou/Gentle Darkness power inherent in Juudai.

Christ, but that doesn't make sense. How do Cosmic Rays give these monsters a thousand year history, fighting against the Light of Destruction? It just makes no damn sense. They went from a child's scribbles to...aliens from another universe that have been around, fighting the Light of Destruction from the get go. LOL WHUT?

The big problem is GX is so heavy on alchemy and Peruvian ancient religion symbolism and allegory, that it ends up running into "Pants on Head" Logic when it tries to execute them into an actual story. Also GX I think was intended for a younger audience then DM was. So.

They should've put all that energy used for shoehorning all that symbolism, into making a manageable and coherent story.

By the power of Julius Caesar!

It annoyed me so much, how the anime just glossed over their history and just made them Johan's friendly fuzzy talking critters. Ugh.

That's possible as well. Whatever technology they use, could just be that far advanced.

They're Time Travelling Bike Borgs. I think that's about all the answer we need. ... Actually, didn't Luciano's Jack Deck do a similar thing where it self destructed?

Have they actually state stated they draw inspiration from them? Really? Because if so, they could seriously work on their execution then.

Everyone compares the arc with Demak, Ruka, Rua, Regulus, and Zeman to Narnia. I'm simply parroting what everyone else says. (That said, Dark World is very classic Mordor/Evil Land of Evil feel until Juudai got his butt whopped by O'Brien.)

Christ, but that doesn't make sense. How do Cosmic Rays give these monsters a thousand year history, fighting against the Light of Destruction? It just makes no damn sense. They went from a child's scribbles to...aliens from another universe that have been around, fighting the Light of Destruction from the get go. LOL WHUT?

When did they get a thousand year history. I don't remember a thousand year history or the Neo-Spacians existing before Juudai made them. Yes they're a part of the Gentle Darkness, but I think the Gentle Darkness is a general term for all forces working together to fight the Light of Destruction. Unless. I've missed something.

They should've put all that energy used for shoehorning all that symbolism, into making a manageable and coherent story.

I wonder if they were told not to make a coherent story by the executives. Also. Kid's show. Story is less of a big point.

And it could of been intentional to make the story incoherent as part of the whole Deconstruction thing people point out GX does alot. Possibly poking fun at the idea that such a hare-brained story idea should be coherent in the first place?

The monsters reside in us. They are reflections of our souls. They are ka. They aren't spirits from another world.

And that was never even explained until the final arc, which makes it as much of an asspull as everything Takegami and Yoshida did.

Hell, didn't Doma and its lunancy get written when Kazuki had just said, basically, "Man, it's time for awesome Egypt shenanigans". If so, we can't... you know, entirely blame Yoshida for wanting to play around with the hinted origins of Duel Monsters when he had nothing else to do. And the creator hadn't handed them a basis of which do things with.

Originally Posted by LeArk

Everyone compares the arc with Demak, Ruka, Rua, Regulus, and Zeman to Narnia. I'm simply parroting what everyone else says. (That said, Dark World is very classic Mordor/Evil Land of Evil feel until Juudai got his butt whopped by O'Brien.)

I can see some slight comparison, but I would like to think that its all coincidental. Otherwise, the writers clearly missed the good, and just...twisted whatever they drew from those authors into something ugly.

When did they get a thousand year history. I don't remember a thousand year history or the Neo-Spacians existing before Juudai made them. Yes they're a part of the Gentle Darkness, but I think the Gentle Darkness is a general term for all forces working together to fight the Light of Destruction. Unless. I've missed something.

Neo-Space, was a Judai creation. When he had his little visit to meet Aqua Dolphin, Aqua Dolphin told him that he was in Neo-Space on the Jupiter Orbit. Furthermore, to quote Aqua Dolphin:

"The source of all fighting comes from the opposition of light and darkness. This so called space, is the battle field of light and darkness...Space is the soft world of darkness where life is fostered. But it's at the edge of perdition because of the light of destruction. We're seeking people possessing the right strength of darkness to fight the light. And *you're* chosen."

Judai is clearly the hero chosen by Neos-Space to save it from the Light of Destruction. And its stated several times that they've been battling the Light of Destruction endlessly and are about to be destroyed. So unless Aqua-Dolphin is lying, they've been its adversaries for a very long time. Much longer than Judai's human age.

I wonder if they were told not to make a coherent story by the executives. Also. Kid's show. Story is less of a big point.

So they can shoehorn esoteric historical references to alchemy and the like, but not write a decent, coherent story? There are kids shows that have much more solid plots than this.

And it could of been intentional to make the story incoherent as part of the whole Deconstruction thing people point out GX does alot. Possibly poking fun at the idea that such a hare-brained story idea should be coherent in the first place?

What good does that do, though? Especially if their target demographic is kids, as you state? They invert some of the usual tropes you'd expect, but even when they expect you to take it seriously, and get down to its own narrative, it makes no sense. A story with no foundation or coherency is chaos.

And that was never even explained until the final arc, which makes it as much of an asspull as everything Takegami and Yoshida did.

No. It was stated back in Battle City, actually. When Isis explained the origin of Duel Monsters to Kaiba, before giving him Obelisk the Tormentor.

"The Ancient Egyptians, like many cultures, thought misfortunes were caused by evil spirits. These spirits of evil, fear and suffering were believed to live in people's hearts. To bring peace, the Pharoaoh's magicians tamed the evil spirits. They gave them names and physical forms, trapping them in stone slabs on walls."

This was back in Volume 10 of YGO Duelist. Well before the end of YGO. The roots of the monsters, the ka, being born from humans was already well established. It was never an asspull.

Hell, didn't Doma and its lunancy get written when Kazuki had just said, basically, "Man, it's time for awesome Egypt shenanigans". If so, we can't... you know, entirely blame Yoshida for wanting to play around with the hinted origins of Duel Monsters when he had nothing else to do. And the creator hadn't handed them a basis of which do things with.

The establishment of monster spirits coming from humans was established before Battle City even started. Yoshida knew of it, or at least he should've, since he was writing for YGO from the get go.

Neo-Space, was a Judai creation. When he had his little visit to meet Aqua Dolphin, Aqua Dolphin told him that he was in Neo-Space on the Jupiter Orbit. Furthermore, to quote Aqua Dolphin:

"The source of all fighting comes from the opposition of light and darkness. This so called space, is the battle field of light and darkness...Space is the soft world of darkness where life is fostered. But it's at the edge of perdition because of the light of destruction. We're seeking people possessing the right strength of darkness to fight the light. And *you're* chosen."

Judai is clearly the hero chosen by Neos-Space to save it from the Light of Destruction. And its stated several times that they've been battling the Light of Destruction endlessly and are about to be destroyed. So unless Aqua-Dolphin is lying, they've been its adversaries for a very long time. Much longer than Judai's human age.

Who's "we". If we take it to the Gentle Darkness, We could just be referring to the general alliance, which has basically been implied to have been around a loooonnnnnggggg time from Yubel and Juudai's drunken flashbacks in their Evil Jewish Space Wedding. Now if it's just the Neo-Spacians, yeah, goofy.

So they can shoehorn esoteric historical references to alchemy and the like, but not write a decent, coherent story? There are kids shows that have much more solid plots than this.

Yes. Its easy to throw those things in enough if they're obscure enough. And you do realize while some Kids Show have a decent coherent story, the majority are episodic, yes? 8U And again. Possible deconstruction. GX tends to seem to take things from DM, and then start poking fun at them while wearing pants on its head.

"The Ancient Egyptians, like many cultures, thought misfortunes were caused by evil spirits. These spirits of evil, fear and suffering were believed to live in people's hearts. To bring peace, the Pharoaoh's magicians tamed the evil spirits. They gave them names and physical forms, trapping them in stone slabs on walls."

That seems worded vaguely enough to allow what Doma did. And specifies Egypt only. And: "Believed". "Thought". Not proven. Also Magic A is not always Magic A. Though thinking on it, the connotation of Atlantis and monsters isn't entirely inaccurate. I've heard some variation on the Atlantis myth that suggests that Atlantis was inhabited by strange inhuman/half human monsters that lived side-by-side with humans (Which, ugh, haven't seen the episodes in years, but the monsters were solid in Atlantis, yes?)

I have to wonder if the Duel Monsters, though yeah, the Parallel Universe thing was portrayed somewhat what, were meant to be more of a stand-in for this mythical land of Monster and Human, then this durka durka mess that we ended up standing in. (Though I notice, GX is the only series where the monsters Duel.)

... On another note, I would like to note, no hard feelings, Mako, and I'm merely trying to argue points. Major props to pointing out my mistakes.

I think I should point out that the Memory Arc was on-going before DOMA aired, so...

Originally Posted by Lil_Yugi

I think I should point out that the Memory Arc was on-going before DOMA aired, so...

Then I should probably point out DOMA was worked on and planned probably months before it aired. :x

Fair enough, but given how the last few episodes foreshadow's Atem chasing Bakura. I guess this is solid evidence that the writers make stuff up as they go?

Still, an assumption like that made by the anime writer for a filler of all things is just... just...

A lot of things had been written since this night...

Originally Posted by Arynis

Wasn't Otogi's father just punished by the Millennium Puzzle, ala "The soul of an useless human will be burned"? And well, just Atem's spirit being "Get off me" at him.

Yes but I taken this example for the idea the feelings could be transmitted to the objet. If it is possible to the MP, it must be possible to the cards.

Originally Posted by LeArk

Then I should probably point out DOMA was worked on and planned probably months before it aired. :x

Kageyama had mentionned that Takahashi himself had worked with the team who make anime. Takahashi must have controlled the continuity of DOMA with his work.

Takahashi gives the anime concept sketches which is likely what Kageyama meant.

Originally Posted by LeArk

Who's "we". If we take it to the Gentle Darkness, We could just be referring to the general alliance, which has basically been implied to have been around a loooonnnnnggggg time from Yubel and Juudai's drunken flashbacks in their Evil Jewish Space Wedding. Now if it's just the Neo-Spacians, yeah, goofy.

I always took "we" as the Neo-Spacians since they were the only ones we know of who chose and spirited away Judai to their universe to give him their deck and task him with defeating Saiou. It seemed like the most likely conclusion. We don't see any other emissaries of the Gentle Darkness.

Yes. Its easy to throw those things in enough if they're obscure enough. And you do realize while some Kids Show have a decent coherent story, the majority are episodic, yes? 8U And again. Possible deconstruction. GX tends to seem to take things from DM, and then start poking fun at them while wearing pants on its head.

So it's just an incoherent mash up of plot points and tropes that are deconstructed and then mixed together under a thin veil of plot? That again doesn't help its case. It could do all that and still give itself some hope of understanding. Most kid shows are episodic, but I'm talking about its seams of believability. Hell, Detective Conan in all of its episodic, drawn out nonsense still keeps some semblance of its overarching story together. I would expect GX to at least do that much.

That seems worded vaguely enough to allow what Doma did. And specifies Egypt only. And: "Believed". "Thought". Not proven. Also Magic A is not always Magic A. Though thinking on it, the connotation of Atlantis and monsters isn't entirely inaccurate. I've heard some variation on the Atlantis myth that suggests that Atlantis was inhabited by strange inhuman/half human monsters that lived side-by-side with humans (Which, ugh, haven't seen the episodes in years, but the monsters were solid in Atlantis, yes?)

Not really. The monsters do come from people. Duel Monsters originated from Egypt. This is what Isis says quite clearly. There are no vagaries in her assertion of historic fact. "The Pharaoh and his magicians tamed the evil spirits. They gave them names and physical forms. Trapping them in stone slabs on walls" Her words are not ambiguous or to be doubted, especially considering she too is a chosen wielder of the Millennium Items. You can't just pigeonhole her statement. I can go on and quote how she says "I understand that you play Duel Monsters. What if I told you the game originated in Ancient Egypt?"

And yes, the Atlantean duel spirits were solid, and real.

I have to wonder if the Duel Monsters, though yeah, the Parallel Universe thing was portrayed somewhat what, were meant to be more of a stand-in for this mythical land of Monster and Human, then this durka durka mess that we ended up standing in. (Though I notice, GX is the only series where the monsters Duel.)

Even if it was, it just wouldn't make any sense. GX derails the original mythos even more. It takes what Doma did, and just flies into the sky with it.

... On another note, I would like to note, no hard feelings, Mako, and I'm merely trying to argue points. Major props to pointing out my mistakes.

No problem. It's nothing bad at all. I enjoy a good debate and discussion!

Then I should probably point out DOMA was worked on and planned probably months before it aired. :x

Even if it was, it still contradicted continuity and the original history presented by the manga. If it was planned months ahead of time, then that's even sadder. A story should be written carefully to ensure its consistent with all its parts. Plot holes should be avoided, and they didn't avoid them. They created them.

Originally Posted by Allana

Kageyama had mentionned that Takahashi himself had worked with the team who make anime. Takahashi must have controlled the continuity of DOMA with his work.

Really? I'd like the source of that. And no, that's not necessarily true. Takahashi could've just contributed character designs (which I'm sure he did for each of the new characters). There's no implication or guarantee he helped write, or supervise anything that was done in terms of the story. Takahashi contributed the character design and basic scenario for GX and 5Ds, but that doesn't mean he has anything to do with any of the series at all right now.

I always took "we" as the Neo-Spacians since they were the only ones we know of who chose and spirited away Judai to their universe to give him their deck and task him with defeating Saiou. It seemed like the most likely conclusion. We don't see any other emissaries of the Gentle Darkness.

Well, for all we know, the artwork fell back in time in a wormhole and created their own realm. :'| God bless you GX. I think the only other representatives we see are the King, Previous Juudai, and Yubel. So there's some sort of alliance, or people similar to it. Or Gentle Darkness is a general label for any beings against the Light of Destruction, sort of like how Spiral Race referred to any lifeform that could create weild Spiral Energy. Gurren Lagann said there were other species, but never showed them. I think the Gentle Darkness was also mentioned to be at war with the Light of Destruction across the universe... which oddly reminds me of a very drunken version of "A Wrinkle in Time" (Great Book)

So it's just an incoherent mash up of plot points and tropes that are deconstructed and then mixed together under a thin veil of plot? That again doesn't help its case. It could do all that and still give itself some hope of understanding. Most kid shows are episodic, but I'm talking about its seams of believability. Hell, Detective Conan in all of its episodic, drawn out nonsense still keeps some semblance of its overarching story together. I would expect GX to at least do that much.

Yes. And Japanese comedy/gags. I've heard the series does make a lot of sense, but you have to basically be an uber nerd in Alchemy, Mythological, Religious, and Apocryphal symbolism to understand it better (Like Arynis and Poet). Poet I believe has part of his/her overall review of GX up on his Journal, which basically explains the series is one big rift at the stages of Alchemy, and how the Seven Stars make sense with knowledge of the Pre-Moche-ian Chavin culture.

http://syntheticpoetic.livejournal.com/69964.html for reading.

And yes, the Atlantean duel spirits were solid, and real.

I still think that's a basis of Edgar Cayce's 'visions' of Atlantis, speaking of the Sons of Belial, early citizens of Atlantis who mated with strange creatures, and these creatures were a part of it. For more reading, perhaps I can suggest Atlantis by Wendy Stein, part of the Great Mysteries series. (Specifically sourced Page 49)

Even if it was, it still contradicted continuity and the original history presented by the manga. If it was planned months ahead of time, then that's even sadder. A story should be written carefully to ensure its consistent with all its parts. Plot holes should be avoided, and they didn't avoid them. They created them.

I think Takahashi at one point has said he originally planned to end YGO at Jou vs Yugi at the end of Battle City. Hrm. For all we know, this plot had been planned for a while, possibly based on the idea Takahashi might not go into detail. Who knows. We don't have that much detail into the behind the scenes dealings of Studio Gallop, Takahashi, and their partners, we can only suspect. But someone had to sign off on these things somewhere.

If Takahashi can single-handedly ban the real life game from having Cash Prizes (Its been on the record I believe that he forbids it.), if he had problems with DOMA, GX, or 5D's Monster Worlds, I think he could of prevented them.

Though, one good thing in my mind, came out of DOMA: Raphael and his Guardians being the first Duel Spirits, or at least a prototype of the concept, in series. Even if Raphael and his fellows cause even worse plot holes with "Whens". I will rage with you on the plot holes there. DOMA might be a wreck, but I am unwilling to dismiss it or GX entirely off hand because there's way too much fun stuff that came with the bad to me.

No problem. It's nothing bad at all. I enjoy a good debate and discussion!

's all good. I do too. XD

Originally Posted by LeArk

Well, for all we know, the artwork fell back in time in a wormhole and created their own realm. :'| God bless you GX. I think the only other representatives we see are the King, Previous Juudai, and Yubel. So there's some sort of alliance, or people similar to it. Or Gentle Darkness is a general label for any beings against the Light of Destruction, sort of like how Spiral Race referred to any lifeform that could create weild Spiral Energy. Gurren Lagann said there were other species, but never showed them. I think the Gentle Darkness was also mentioned to be at war with the Light of Destruction across the universe... which oddly reminds me of a very drunken version of "A Wrinkle in Time" (Great Book)

*slowly begins to bleed from his ears* XD

I...guess? I mean, if this were 5Ds I'd be able to maybe accept that, but this is GX. They never even introduced those subspacial physics anomalies into their plot, like 5Ds did. I would think a major plot point such as that would be alluded to or stated. As for the Gentle Darkness, yeah. I do think it generally refers to anything on the opposite side of the "Light of Destruction." But I don't believe Aqua Dolphin is a representative of the entire, peaceful universe and existence. I think he only speaks for Neo Space, which again makes one wonder how in the world Judai's cartoon designs came to life such as they did.

Yes. And Japanese comedy/gags. I've heard the series does make a lot of sense, but you have to basically be an uber nerd in Alchemy, Mythological, Religious, and Apocryphal symbolism to understand it better (Like Arynis and Poet). Poet I believe has part of his/her overall review of GX up on his Journal, which basically explains the series is one big rift at the stages of Alchemy, and how the Seven Stars make sense with knowledge of the Pre-Moche-ian Chavin culture.


http://syntheticpoetic.livejournal.com/69964.html for reading.

ROTFL, well glad we agree then! XDDDD

And I do have to say GX is pretty hilarious at times.

Yeah, I read it. And it's definitely very interesting and cool. I like GX despite my hammering of it, but I can't deny its fundamental flaws, especially when compared to the source material. Such inconsistencies irk me, because they could so easily be avoided.

I still think that's a basis of Edgar Cayce's 'visions' of Atlantis, speaking of the Sons of Belial, early citizens of Atlantis who mated with strange creatures, and these creatures were a part of it. For more reading, perhaps I can suggest Atlantis by Wendy Stein, part of the Great Mysteries series. (Specifically sourced Page 49)

I think they could've reconciled their portrayal of Atlantis with the canon, by showing that the Atlanteans had their own unique method of extracting the dark entities, that are duel monsters, from people and sealing them in slabs or what have you. It's the whole parallel world to our own that really just screws the pooch. I could at least accept begrudgingly the anime's decision to make Duel Monsters basically originate in Atlantis, if they had the same methodology and creation. But its the whole "monster world" insanity that just really makes Doma stick out like a sore thumb. Which is oddly paradoxical because its music, animation, and duels are all very enjoyable and well done. In terms of presentation, Doma is awesome. It beats out Memory World which is sad. Because that's the canon and that also got butchered worst than a victim of Jack the Ripper.

I think Takahashi at one point has said he originally planned to end YGO at Jou vs Yugi at the end of Battle City. Hrm. For all we know, this plot had been planned for a while, possibly based on the idea Takahashi might not go into detail. Who knows. We don't have that much detail into the behind the scenes dealings of Studio Gallop, Takahashi, and their partners, we can only suspect. But someone had to sign off on these things somewhere.

That would be an odd place to end the series, seeing as how he talked about wanting to go to Ancient Egypt and delve into Atem gaining his memory and all. It'd be a rather unfullfilling ending, leaving us a lot of questions.

No we don't what really goes on behind the scenes, but in terms of the product. Doma does stick out as being out of step with the orignal story. It just...does. It went in a direction the original story didn't. Which in turn, leads to confusion in regards to YGO's world mechanics and mythology. It kinda requires us now to use doublethink in terms of discussing the origins of Duel Monsters and the spirits.

If Takahashi can single-handedly ban the real life game from having Cash Prizes (Its been on the record I believe that he forbids it.), if he had problems with DOMA, GX, or 5D's Monster Worlds, I think he could of prevented them.

One, what the hell? That's because of him?

Two, that's in regards to the actual game proper. Not how the anime does things. Takahashi himself says he just entrusts the writers at the studio to write the story and he's just watching unfold like the rest of us. That was in the bunkoban afterward previewing 5Ds. So I think by the precedent we can infer Takahashi likes to give them the freedom to do what they want, while he just gives them starting point to spring from. Which is I guess good for him because that gives him more time to roll in the cash money and freedom of no longer having to meet hectic Weekly Jump schedules.

Though, one good thing in my mind, came out of DOMA: Raphael and his Guardians being the first Duel Spirits, or at least a prototype of the concept, in series. Even if Raphael and his fellows cause even worse plot holes with "Whens". I will rage with you on the plot holes there. DOMA might be a wreck, but I am unwilling to dismiss it or GX entirely off hand because there's way too much fun stuff that came with the bad to me.

The way they handled Raphael and his Duel Spirits which served as his guardian angels was tactfully done most of the time. I liked it. Although it bugged me how they appeared to him while he was trapped on the island, as if they were being played on a duel disk. Their manifestation in that manner bugged me. But most of the time, it was subtle and tasteful. You didn't have Raphael talking over his shoulder to Eatos, appearing as if he were suffering from Alzheimers or something.

I liked some of things of Doma as I've stated before. It was very enjoyable. The duels, the music, the Orichalchos, the new characters (even Dartz in all his overpowered glory). But the truth is, is that it really set the unfortunate precedent of the next spinoffs. They just ran with it all.

's all good. I do too. XD

Yay! ^^

I think he only speaks for Neo Space, which again makes one wonder how in the world Judai's cartoon designs came to life such as they did.

Well a friend of mine suggested Juudai, as Haou, has the power to create shit out of nowhere, especially cards. BU Alternatively, cosmic rays give rise to paper gaining sentience. It did it to complex proteins over billions of years. Why not in 10 to magical Computer Chip Cardboard that is Spirit Life?

Yeah, I read it. And it's definitely very interesting and cool. I like GX despite my hammering of it, but I can't deny its fundamental flaws, especially when compared to the source material. Such inconsistencies irk me, because they could so easily be avoided.

And like I've said, I just go with the Bellisario's Maxim. Small team, best product they can on a deadline, limited budget, and dodge Executive Meddling. This is how I'm able to forgive the nightmare of the Post-Script Seasons of 5D's. Though yeah, GX turned out ridiculous. XD

[quote]I think they could've reconciled their portrayal of Atlantis with the canon, by showing that the Atlanteans had their own unique method of extracting the dark entities, that are duel monsters, from people and sealing them in slabs or what have you. It's the whole parallel world to our own that really just screws the pooch. I could at least accept begrudgingly the anime's decision to make Duel Monsters basically originate in Atlantis, if they had the same methodology and creation. But its the whole "monster world" insanity that just really makes Doma stick out like a sore thumb. Which is oddly paradoxical because its music, animation, and duels are all very enjoyable and well done. In terms of presentation, Doma is awesome. It beats out Memory World which is sad. Because that's the canon and that also got butchered worst than a victim of Jack the Ripper.[quote]

I would of been fine if they had just been "hurpa durpa, monsters" as Atlantis is basically the Ur Land of Genesis in later mythology and lore. I'll admit the Parallel Universe thing is a bit dumb. But we're stuck with it, and how do we resolve it? The best I propose is Atlantis and GX and Ancient Fairy Dragon is Magic B, and Egypt had Magic A. =(

Wild Mass Guessing: The alternate Duel Monster universes arose as a result of human imagination, thus creating the monsters in the first place, and were made more real as Man as able to push all the monsters off the map persay.

Also, what's really interesting there, is that YOOOOSSSHHHIIIDDDAAA was behind the scenario writing and the "major" episodes I believe for both Atlantis and Ancient Egypt. ... Which sort of makes it his fault for not interconnecting it better, but... Hrm.

One, what the hell? That's because of him?

Two, that's in regards to the actual game proper. Not how the anime does things. Takahashi himself says he just entrusts the writers at the studio to write the story and he's just watching unfold like the rest of us. That was in the bunkoban afterward previewing 5Ds. So I think by the precedent we can infer Takahashi likes to give them the freedom to do what they want, while he just gives them starting point to spring from. Which is I guess good for him because that gives him more time to roll in the cash money and freedom of no longer having to meet hectic Weekly Jump schedules.

1) Yes. I believe Tewart or someone else has gone on the record that he doesn't want his game being played for money. And considering all the slimeballs there are at Pojo, I, for one, do not blame him in the least on this point.

2) I'd still think that means he doesn't have a problem with it. If he probably were enraged enough, depending on how he holds the rights to the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise (if at all), he could pull the plug if he really wanted to, I'd think.

Originally Posted by Arynis

Anyway, the bolded parts are connected - namely, the Egyptian Book of Thoth contained powerful spells, which Pegasus referred to as the magicians summoning the monsters.

Now this I find interesting. Along with the Thoth Tarot. As a major point... hrm. Just checked. What's really interesting and this is more OOC... Crowley was connected to the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn which rediscovered Enochian magic (Which was a recurring gimmick on Dartz's Orichalcos cards). And he also wrote an account on Atlantis... I wonder if any of his writings on Atlantis influenced the DOMA arc besides Enochian fan-service (Haven't checked it thoroughly myself, but it is free to check on the internet... hrm.)

Originally Posted by LeArk

Well a friend of mine suggested Juudai, as Haou, has the power to create shit out of nowhere, especially cards. BU Alternatively, cosmic rays give rise to paper gaining sentience. It did it to complex proteins over billions of years. Why not in 10 to magical Computer Chip Cardboard that is Spirit Life?

The "wave of justice" apparently gave them life. And Yubel got her powers from the "Light of Destruction." So that I don't have a problem with. It's just how these things have apparently bent time, and act as if they existed since forever that just really confuses me.

And like I've said, I just go with the Bellisario's Maxim. Small team, best product they can on a deadline, limited budget, and dodge Executive Meddling. This is how I'm able to forgive the nightmare of the Post-Script Seasons of 5D's. Though yeah, GX turned out ridiculous. XD

Such a shame really. I just wish there was more quality/continuity control at work.

I would of been fine if they had just been "hurpa durpa, monsters" as Atlantis is basically the Ur Land of Genesis in later mythology and lore. I'll admit the Parallel Universe thing is a bit dumb. But we're stuck with it, and how do we resolve it? The best I propose is Atlantis and GX and Ancient Fairy Dragon is Magic B, and Egypt had Magic A. =(

You really can't resolve it, to be honest. What you said is basically what it has to be thought of. Two separate, contradictory, equal, and canon portrayals are side by side. Duel Monsters are the spirits, ka, of people, while also separately inhabiting their own lil' pocket dimensions side by side our own. Pretty damn weird.

Wild Mass Guessing: The alternate Duel Monster universes arose as a result of human imagination, thus creating the monsters in the first place, and were made more real as Man as able to push all the monsters off the map persay.

That'd be an interesting explanation as to the origin of their dimension. Would explain how every single random monster ends up with a spirit. It's like "Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends" except with more death and mind control.

Also, what's really interesting there, is that YOOOOSSSHHHIIIDDDAAA was behind the scenario writing and the "major" episodes I believe for both Atlantis and Ancient Egypt. ... Which sort of makes it his fault for not interconnecting it better, but... Hrm.

LOL oh that's just rich. The irony, it just never stops!

1) Yes. I believe Tewart or someone else has gone on the record that he doesn't want his game being played for money. And considering all the slimeballs there are at Pojo, I, for one, do not blame him in the least on this point.

I see your point, and Takahashi's. But it just sucks that good, honest players get screwed too. Cause YGO prizing sucks, hard. But considering people cheat now for what we get, I can only imagine what would happen if serious cash were on the line. Ugh. Sucks, bad.

2) I'd still think that means he doesn't have a problem with it. If he probably were enraged enough, depending on how he holds the rights to the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise (if at all), he could pull the plug if he really wanted to, I'd think.

Takahashi is indifferent. He's done with his story, and knows that whatever happens, it won't diminish the story he told. And I don't blame him. He's earned his money and right to just enjoy his free time and move on from YGO. But I don't think his indifference equates to acceptance or approval. He's not involved, and I don't think he'd want to embarass or shame the writers who are working hard at keeping the series alive. However....bad they may be doing it now. They at least deserve that professional respect.

The "wave of justice" apparently gave them life. And Yubel got her powers from the "Light of Destruction." So that I don't have a problem with. It's just how these things have apparently bent time, and act as if they existed since forever that just really confuses me.

Welcome to possible Retroactive Continuity! Oh right, Wave of Justice. Durrr. I keep forgetting things from GX.

Such a shame really. I just wish there was more quality/continuity control at work.

I think with a 10 year continuity, such foul ups should be expected.

LOL oh that's just rich. The irony, it just never stops!

See. This is the usefulness we get from having actual Screen Writer credits due to Arynis and friends and their wonderful research. >BU We know exactly where to blame the problems.

I see your point, and Takahashi's. But it just sucks that good, honest players get screwed too. Cause YGO prizing sucks, hard. But considering people cheat now for what we get, I can only imagine what would happen if serious cash were on the line. Ugh. Sucks, bad.

I also suspect it might also be a move by other partners, since I expect Mom and Dad would frown at their kids playing in a game where money is at stake. (Also, haven't most other cash prize games besides MtG died painful crashing deaths?)

That'd be an interesting explanation as to the origin of their dimension. Would explain how every single random monster ends up with a spirit. It's like "Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends" except with more death and mind control.

This would not, however, account for things like Machine King or Gradius Duel Spirits. Unless it was the sheer force of the Toku and Konami fandoms willed them into existence. B|

Originally Posted by LeArk

Welcome to possible Retroactive Continuity! Oh right, Wave of Justice. Durrr. I keep forgetting things from GX.

Yeah XD

That's apparently the "wave" that gave them their sentience and power.

I think with a 10 year continuity, such foul ups should be expected.

It's almost as bad as a comic book though. It can't be *perfect* but dude. The fans seem to have a better handle of everything and that's just weird.

See.

This is the usefulness we get from having actual Screen Writer credits due to Arynis and friends and their wonderful research. >BU We know exactly where to blame the problems.

LOL exactly.

I also suspect it might also be a move by other partners, since I expect Mom and Dad would frown at their kids playing in a game where money is at stake. (Also, haven't most other cash prize games besides MtG died painful crashing deaths?)

Doesn't Pokemon give cash prizes still?

And I would think Mom and Dad would want their kids bringing home some cash.. XD

This would not, however, account for things like Machine King or Gradius Duel Spirits. Unless it was the sheer force of the Toku and Konami fandoms willed them into existence. B|

LOL yeah. That...see. I don't understand how a space ship or an obvious machine would have a spirit. A cyborg, I could get. But...meh. I dunno.

Originally Posted by LeArk

Though, one good thing in my mind, came out of DOMA: Raphael and his Guardians being the first Duel Spirits, or at least a prototype of the concept, in series. Even if Raphael and his fellows cause even worse plot holes with "Whens". I will rage with you on the plot holes there. DOMA might be a wreck, but I am unwilling to dismiss it or GX entirely off hand because there's way too much fun stuff that came with the bad to me.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

The way they handled Raphael and his Duel Spirits which served as his guardian angels was tactfully done most of the time. I liked it. Although it bugged me how they appeared to him while he was trapped on the island, as if they were being played on a duel disk. Their manifestation in that manner bugged me. But most of the time, it was subtle and tasteful. You didn't have Raphael talking over his shoulder to Eatos, appearing as if he were suffering from Alzheimers or something.

Agreed. Rafael's attachment to his Guardian cards was surprisingly touching. But really, this isn't the same as Duel Spirits. This is what Sugoroku talked about at the very beginning of Magic and Wizards: if you treasure a card enough, it develops a heart of its own. It's quite different.

Rafael's Guardians never leapt out of Rafael's deck to defend him likes Neos does. Even though Doma had the stupid premise that Duel Monsters live in another dimension, we never saw this as anything to do with the Guardians. The Guardians never physically helped Rafael. Rafael survived due to his own talents. You could even go as far as saying that the Guardians appearing before him was just artistic license to show his inspiration. Obviously the Orichalcos duels and magic are a form of Game of Darkness where the monsters become somewhat real, but that's already an established part of canon.

Rather than the Guardians being the start of GX's silly Duel Spirits, I'd say they're not really anything more than what was shown in the original manga, even.

Holy crap Ra, you guys are on a roll.

@ LeArk: Regarding Crowley and Atlantis. Poet also mentioned that the tale of Atlantis actually came from Egypt, and not from Plato like everyone thinks. However, with the names Helmos, Timaeus and Critias around, which is clearly from Plato... dayum.

I do see what you mean now, Mako. But still, there are two things that still bug me.

A) The monsters originate from tablets, in which their spirits were sealed in. Yet, the same spirit exists through the Duel Monsters card, Mana and Mahado being an example, through Dark Magician and Dark Magician Girl. Or there are the God Cards. They are sealed up in the tablets. Yet... they can talk and act through the Duel Monsters cards. Somehow. As if Pegasus somehow "lifted" the monsters from their tablets into the IC chips. Which is, going by the POL movie novel, is exactly what he did.

Only Industrial Illusions can release official Duel Monsters cards. Kaiba Corporation is permitted to the division which deals with scanning the information on the IC chips embedded in dueling cards and projecting their image.
Pegasus was once an art student. When his lover died by an illness, he headed to Egypt in chase of legends which say that meeting the deceased is possible. It is there that he obtains the Millennium Eye, one of the Millennium Items. By deciphering the magic words kept hidden in Duel Monsters and converting them into IC chips, Pegasus made an enormous fortune.

My point is, these monsters are supposed to stay in tablets. Yet, they are manifested through the Duel Monsters cards. Then again, the IC chips are freaking Black Boxes. Like Evangelion Cores.

Even if some monsters developed hearts because of their owners, Mahado and Mana talk as if were their actual past selves right there. Was it Atem's heart stirring the spirits of Dark Magician and Dark Magician Girl? So how did that happen? (Unless that was in the anime only, although it still makes me think about the God Cards.)

B) In Ancient Egypt, when the Millennium Key scanned someone's heart, they saw a monster inside that person. But in the present day, Shadi looked inside a person and discovered their Soul Room instead. So how does it go from a monster reflecting that person's personality to a room reflecting that person's personality? What happened to the monster concept? (Or alternately, what's with the Soul Room concept, in that case?)

Or the room represents the person themselves, while the monster is like, an extension of a person's personality? Aren't they supposed to be the same thing?

Or is this another case of Takahashi making stuff up as he went along? The Soul Room concept was around in the very early parts of the manga, while the "monsters in the heart" concept was introduced pre-Battle City.

Originally Posted by Arynis

A) The monsters originate from tablets, in which their spirits were sealed in. Yet, the same spirit exists through the Duel Monsters card, Mana and Mahado being an example, through Dark Magician and Dark Magician Girl. Or there are the God Cards. They are sealed up in the tablets. Yet... they can talk and act through the Duel Monsters cards. Somehow. As if Pegasus somehow "lifted" the monsters from their tablets into the IC chips. Which is, going by the POL movie novel, is exactly what he did.

It's not just the chips. It's the fact that with the power of the Millennium Eye, while at the behest of Shadi, he recreated the Games of Darkness through this card game. The slabs today, are now cards. Most of the slabs are now destroyed. Or lost. But they've been recreated and given power. When Yugi solved the Millennium Puzzle, the Games of Darkness were once again brought back to life. All of those occurrences between the wielders of the Millennium Items, particularly Yugi solving the Puzzle, revived the ancient magic that was the source of Duel Monsters.

Even if some monsters developed hearts because of their owners, Mahado and Mana talk as if were their actual past selves right there. Was it Atem's heart stirring the spirits of Dark Magician and Dark Magician Girl? So how did that happen? (Unless that was in the anime only, although it still makes me think about the God Cards.)

Because those are their past selves. Their spirits are with Yugi and Atem. Those cards are them. Mahad and Mana made a solemn vow to always be by Atem's side. Their spirits have been waiting for him to come back and finally regain his memories. They are his loyal servants. The God Cards are also the same.

B) In Ancient Egypt, when the Millennium Key scanned someone's heart, they saw a monster inside that person. But in the present day, Shadi looked inside a person and discovered their Soul Room instead. So how does it go from a monster reflecting that person's personality to a room reflecting that person's personality? What happened to the monster concept? (Or alternately, what's with the Soul Room concept, in that case?)

Who says its only either/or? I'm sure if Shadi wanted to, he could also examine and see what type of ka their spirit would create as well. Not only that, but not every person is strong enough to even create a ka in the first place. Some just don't have one. At least one that has any discernible shape.

Or the room represents the person themselves, while the monster is like, an extension of a person's personality? Aren't they supposed to be the same thing?

No they aren't. The ka is not the same thing as one's soul. The ka is separate. The ka is more of a separate, manifestation that is created based on one's soul.

Or is this another case of Takahashi making stuff up as he went along? The Soul Room concept was around in the very early parts of the manga, while the "monsters in the heart" concept was introduced pre-Battle City.

No, the whole duality between one's soul and ka is based from Egyptian mythology. The "ba" would be the closest equivalent to what we see as our individual soul. Atem's spirit...the spirit within the Millennium Puzzle. Is his ba. It's what makes Atem, Atem. His personality. His memories. It lives on in death.

The "ka" is someone's spirit. A manifestation of their spiritual essence. A representation of what their soul is, if you will. Bakura's "ba" is himself. But his "ka" was the vengeful, hateful, demon Diabound. They are not the same.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

A lot of fictional stories suck too. That doesn't excuse it.

I never said it excused it; but then again, complaining about it doesn't improve the quality of the work.

That's a contradiction though, and you know it. It does not mesh nor reconcile with the previously established facts or mythology introduced within the manga. The fact this new revelation is inconsistent AND contradictory to the original canon is what makes this anime addition so offensive.

Yes, it is indeed a contradiction, as there are so many of in this franchise (which is exactly the reason I made a thread about contradictions a while back). The thing is, contradictions can be explained and made to work - but only if they are handled correctly. Based on your reactions, I'ma make a wild guess that you do not believe it was.

Exactly. That's the best description of their writing sessions, ever.

That describes most writers these days, and for much of history. LSD gave us Through the Looking Glass, remember?

That'd work if that were the case, but that is not how it's presented by the anime at all. The Crystal Beasts belonging to Johan were clearly magical, and showed themselves to Johan and Pegasus, to prove that he was their rightful master. Johan didn't give those cards power. They had power before he even used them.

It's simply my theory. I have neither the means to prove it nor the ability to provide a strong reason not to discredit the anime explanations. All I know is exactly what you (basically) said; that I have a logical explanation.

I can vouch for LeArk's "Kazuki Takahashi wanted to end the series at Yugi vs. Jyo after Battle City" comment, since that was semi-common knowledge to those who had broken free of the dub at while DM was still running. His reasoning for continuing infact was that he left too many loose ends that needed tying up, and voila the Memory arc.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

It's not just the chips. It's the fact that with the power of the Millennium Eye, while at the behest of Shadi, he recreated the Games of Darkness through this card game. The slabs today, are now cards. Most of the slabs are now destroyed. Or lost. But they've been recreated and given power. When Yugi solved the Millennium Puzzle, the Games of Darkness were once again brought back to life. All of those occurrences between the wielders of the Millennium Items, particularly Yugi solving the Puzzle, revived the ancient magic that was the source of Duel Monsters.

Hmm, didn't Sugoroku and Hopkins see the images in that chamber they were in, though? (Although that was anime filler... So yeah.)

Because those are their past selves. Their spirits are with Yugi and Atem. Those cards are them. Mahad and Mana made a solemn vow to always be by Atem's side. Their spirits have been waiting for him to come back and finally regain his memories. They are his loyal servants. The God Cards are also the same.

Hmm, okay. So why can't other cards have spirits, then? Or is the issue the execution ala duel spirits?

Who says its only either/or? I'm sure if Shadi wanted to, he could also examine and see what type of ka their spirit would create as well. Not only that, but not every person is strong enough to even create a ka in the first place. Some just don't have one. At least one that has any discernible shape.

Ah, I see.

No they aren't. The ka is not the same thing as one's soul. The ka is separate. The ka is more of a separate, manifestation that is created based on one's soul.

No, the whole duality between one's soul and ka is based from Egyptian mythology. The "ba" would be the closest equivalent to what we see as our individual soul. Atem's spirit...the spirit within the Millennium Puzzle. Is his ba. It's what makes Atem, Atem. His personality. His memories. It lives on in death.

The "ka" is someone's spirit. A manifestation of their spiritual essence. A representation of what their soul is, if you will. Bakura's "ba" is himself. But his "ka" was the vengeful, hateful, demon Diabound. They are not the same.

I never understood the whole ka/ba thing. Thanks for the explanation.

So in a sense the Soul Room would be the ba's image, with the monster being the ka?

Originally Posted by Lil_Yugi

I can vouch for LeArk's "Kazuki Takahashi wanted to end the series at Yugi vs. Jyo after Battle City" comment, since that was semi-common knowledge to those who had broken free of the dub at while DM was still running. His reasoning for continuing infact was that he left too many loose ends that needed tying up, and voila the Memory arc.

Really? This is interesting.

I can't really prove it though. It may be in an interview somewhwer or in one of the volumes. It kind of one of those "word of mouth" things from the translators at the time.

Originally Posted by Arynis

Hmm, didn't Sugoroku and Hopkins see the images in that chamber they were in, though? (Although that was anime filler... So yeah.)

Well some exist but considering a lot of the Shrine of Wedju was destroyed, most of them are probably lost.

Hmm, okay. So why can't other cards have spirits, then? Or is the issue the execution ala duel spirits?

...Because not all cards are the manifested spirits of an Egyptian Priest and his apprentice? XD

And yes, the execution is one of the main thing I'm talking about.

I never understood the whole ka/ba thing. Thanks for the explanation.

So in a sense the Soul Room would be the ba's image, with the monster being the ka?

Yeah, you could say that.

Originally Posted by Lil_Yugi

I can't really prove it though. It may be in an interview somewhwer or in one of the volumes. It kind of one of those "word of mouth" things from the translators at the time.

Hmm, really? Well he's right. It definitely would've been a bad spot to end. Given the unanswered questions. And besides, on the topic at hand, I'm not sure how that's relevant, seeing as how the origin of DM was explained back before Battle City. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

...Because not all cards are the manifested spirits of an Egyptian Priest and his apprentice? XD

And yes, the execution is one of the main thing I'm talking about.

Well, they don't have to be? Arguably, Mahado, Mana and the God Cards had a close tie to Atem, but I don't see why there couldn't be other spirits at all.

The god cards aren't spirits. They're actual gods, capable of casting judgment on people for nothing short of just pissing them off. The god cards were the only cards that were "cards that were more than cards" the other cards like Blue-eyes and Black Magician are more along the lines of the "card's heart" thing and the repetition of destiny. The cards only represented their past incarnations, and the reason each character had the favortie card that they did is because destiny was repeating itself with Yugi and Kaiba. In short, Black Magician doesn't have the /actual/ spirit of Mahad in it, but is more along the lines of a representation of him.

Originally Posted by Lil_Yugi

The god cards aren't spirits. They're actual gods, capable of casting judgment on people for nothing short of just pissing them off. The god cards were the only cards that were "cards that were more than cards" the other cards like Blue-eyes and Black Magician are more along the lines of the "card's heart" thing and the repetition of destiny. The cards only represented their past incarnations, and the reason each character had the favortie card that they did is because destiny was repeating itself with Yugi and Kaiba. In short, Black Magician doesn't have the /actual/ spirit of Mahad in it, but is more along the lines of a representation of him.

I have to disagree with you there. Dark Magician has proven more than enough times, along with Blue Eyes, to be more than just a representation of their owner. If the Blue Eyes White Dragon can literally force itself to die when it was played by another duelist, and Dark Magician can sacrifice itself to a card effect that Yugi didn't know existed in order to spare him from a grisly death, there's a level of sentience that goes beyond anything a normal card can have. During the Ceremonial Duel, Dark Magician even says "I've crossed 3000 years, and now, I'll offer you my soul once more." They go well beyond in terms of personality and sentience. And that's due to the connection they had with their owners.

Originally Posted by Arynis

Well, they don't have to be? Arguably, Mahado, Mana and the God Cards had a close tie to Atem, but I don't see why there couldn't be other spirits at all.

Those ties cross over 3000 years, and are forged by actual magic. It's more than just something any normal duelist would have.

But that's from an Egypt only perspective. What about the other cultures? What about the Signer Dragons? They follow the Signers in whatever form it is fitting for that age (eg. cards, in this case). Although interestingly, only Power Tool Dragon exhibited some form of sentience (looking at Rua after he was defeated by Divine), unless I'm forgetting any other case. Or there's Yubel, who had a close bond with Judai in their past, then protected the reincarnated Judai, albeit going a bit overboard, but she's also someone who goes beyond mere sentience and card's heart.

Originally Posted by Arynis

But that's from an Egypt only perspective. What about the other cultures? What about the Signer Dragons? They follow the Signers in whatever form it is fitting for that age (eg. cards, in this case). Although interestingly, only Power Tool Dragon exhibited some form of sentience (looking at Rua after he was defeated by Divine), unless I'm forgetting any other case. Or there's Yubel, who had a close bond with Judai in their past, then protected the reincarnated Judai, albeit going a bit overboard, but she's also someone who goes beyond mere sentience and card's heart.

Well I'm looking at this through the original canon, in terms of Duel Monsters originating in Egypt. If other cultures have it, which is possible, they'd have their own culturally unique manifestation. It's certainly possible that other cards have some sort of magical sentience or what not, but in terms of the original series, that sorta thing is real. Because in the original premise and all, the spirits that made up duel monsters, were spirits that came from within humans, or just were gods themselves.

The Signer Dragons are brought back every 5000 years to do battle with the Earthbound Gods. In the 5Ds era, they were awoken through Duel Monsters. As were the Earthbound Gods. They aren't the same animal as ka. So they'd be governed by their own rules.

All the Signer Dragons have demonstrated sentience though. Remember Black Rose Dragon's rage, and Stardust Dragon trying to protect everyone from its Thorns of Hatred? And getting all cut up? Stardust Dragon has demonstrated numerous times its more than just a card. Hell, Red Demons Dragon and Stardust roared and glared at each other menacingly when Yusei and Jack dueled each other. All the Dragons at some point or another have shown some sort of....character in 5Ds.

In regards to GX, the cards are definitely more than just cards most of the time. No denying that. Yubel is very much alive, and very much aware. I'm not denying that. I was merely just referring to the original canon and how it all fit into this.

Ah, alright then. S'cool. And regarding the Signer Dragons, I knew I was forgetting something. :x

Regarding the spirit business, Yakou did mention that Pegasus give each and every card a spirit... I remember the discussion from the Pegasus' death thread you made, Mako. Although that was more of the heart of the duelist (eg. Keith's deck was used for putting Keith together). Despite Takahashi confirming that Pegasus is well in the Afterlife, I can't help but get a Fridge Horror-ey feel of Pegasus' soul being contained in each and every card. Although it would be more of a representation of him, rather than his soul literally being in there.

Just throwing this in here, seeing how it might be relevant to the whole card spirit ... soul ... thing.

Originally Posted by Arynis

Regarding the spirit business, Yakou did mention that Pegasus give each and every card a spirit... I remember the discussion from the Pegasus' death thread you made, Mako. Although that was more of the heart of the duelist (eg. Keith's deck was used for putting Keith together). Despite Takahashi confirming that Pegasus is well in the Afterlife, I can't help but get a Fridge Horror-ey feel of Pegasus' soul being contained in each and every card. Although it would be more of a representation of him, rather than his soul literally being in there.

Just throwing this in here, seeing how it might be relevant to the whole card spirit ... soul ... thing.

The RA Project was based on that theory and idea, yes. Every duelist pours a bit of their soul into their cards, so theoretically, if you could extract those pieces of soul and put them all together, you'd be able to create a copy of their spirit. The Wicked Avatar was going to use its corrupted magic to revive Pegasus's soul for Yakou, by using Kaiba Corporation's Duel Ring Server, which is a database for every single card in existence.

YGO R basically took a twisted perspective on the whole "duelists put a piece of their soul in their cards" with the Wicked Avatar, which in turn is a twisted representation of Ra.

...And since there was such an interesting discussion going on previously before I hadn't seen or responded to in the other thread, I'll go ahead and post my two cents, because I just can't help but reply.

Originally Posted by LeArk

I'm not really bothered by Egypt not being the only place with dark magic. Every culture has it in some way, so it strikes me as ultimately stupid for even Takahashi to restrict his series down by chaining it to one place. (And he has to be signing off on shit somewhere if they ask him to do proto-type sketches...). What makes Egypt so special that later down the line, stuff from other places can't wake up/fuel shit? Besides "durp, its where it all began". Ugh.

It's not so much that no other culture should have it, but there should be a reasonable explanation and in-series validation as to how another group of people just so happen to stumble onto the super secret magic that again, was stated to have originated from Egypt in the first place. Cultural overlap is quite common, but we're not talking about parallel mythos, legends, or fables here. We're talking about actual, manifested occult/magical abilities that were said to be exclusively done and created by said civilization through their own secret, hidden magic. How does it happen? Why? Those are legitimate questions a story should be capable of answering if they're going to go and change history if you will, by adding more members to the super secret exclusive club of Duel Monster creators. The whole esoteric charm and character of the mythos gets diluted when it becomes more and more common, and diverted from its original source.

The one thing I liked about 5Ds is that its mythological origin story regarding the Crimson Dragon and the Signers did not have anything to do with Duel Monsters. It was its own unique blend of magic and lore, that just so happened to manifest itself within the card game this era. It made it much more believable, and unique, without hamfistedly contorting and opening up a bunch of plot holes.

Originally Posted by LeArk

Though, I can sort of get why people get pissy at non-Egypt stuff, but the franchise just seems to me to be almost very open sandbox on its very concepts to me, and if Takahashi were so hard-nosed, he could of probably said "No, you can't/shouldn't do that". Then again, I'm biased from 6 years of playing with the same damn RP group, so I'm a little skewed on the whole "multiple sources of magic thing."

I wouldn't really think so, considering he's not one of the anime writers in the first place, and he signed off writing the story. As stated by the bunkobans with 5Ds, he only gave the initial design sketches and concept and left everything in NAS's hands. He's a spectator very much like we are. And why would he be so unprofessional as to try to undermine and insult the effort of those he gave the series to? He's not Alan Moore. He's much more professional and easy going than that. His original story ended and he's content with that. Akira Toriyama himself did the designs for the characters of Dragonball GT, yet that was very much not his story, and all Toei.

Originally Posted by Arynis

Or, they were adapted from the Egyptian Gods, similar to how the Romans adapted the Greek Gods for themselves. Still, I prefer either explanation above "DERP Chinese copies of the Egyptian Gods". We know Yu-Gi-Oh! likes its mythological ties, so why not go along with it rather than jumping to such conclusions?

Because the plot needs to be able to tell us its narrative backstory and give us a story to hear, not the other way around. When they decided to introduce this concept, they should've justified their newest addition to the plot, not just throw it infront of us without any preparation or develpment. It's not so much jumping to conclusions, as much as just stating a fact. They just aren't explained or justified beyond Daitokuji seeing an ominous tablet in some place, that has their likeness on that. We can't just fill in all the holes for them, after all. It's not much to expect and all.

And also, because this caught my interest:

Originally Posted by TheMadPoet

Anyway, it's just funny to me, because the Egyptian Gods, while Pegasus designed them first, look so little like their classic depiction counterparts that from a realistic standpoint it really looks like they're the design copies and not the other way around. Because honestly, if they HAD been based on their tablet images, they wouldn't look a think alike except Obelisk, who is just a basic 'man' form anyway. If it is paralellism I don't think it's necessarily paralellism in the sense of cultures that interacted basing their gods off each other; I think it's more like the curious kind of paralellism where two cultures who have never ever met and never ever could have met have similar images and creatures somehow.

That's because no one saw the Egyptian Gods fully manifested until Atem summoned them, since he was the chosen Pharaoh to wield all three. Their actual appearance had been lost and unknown for quite sometime.

The only reason Pegasus was able to design accurate facsimiles to their original forms, was because they appeared to him in his dreams through the power of the Millennium Eye. They revealed themselves to him. Which was again, all part of Shadi's master plot to orchestrate the revival of the Pharaoh and have their destinies intertwine so Atem would regain his memories.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

The RA Project was based on that theory and idea, yes. Every duelist pours a bit of their soul into their cards, so theoretically, if you could extract those pieces of soul and put them all together, you'd be able to create a copy of their spirit. The Wicked Avatar was going to use its corrupted magic to revive Pegasus's soul for Yakou, by using Kaiba Corporation's Duel Ring Server, which is a database for every single card in existence.

YGO R basically took a twisted perspective on the whole "duelists put a piece of their soul in their cards" with the Wicked Avatar, which in turn is a twisted representation of Ra.

Right. Gotcha.

However, the Wicked Avatar could have been playing with Yakou's heart, showing him Pegasus' illusion, what his heart desired, or alternately, what caused the darkness in his heart. Just like how the Millennium Eye toyed with Pegasus' darkness which was Cyndia's death. So reviving Pegasus may have been possible in theory, but the Avatar was just messing around with Yakou.

Considering that Gekkou said that Yakou is just like Pegasus, and given the similarities and parallels between Pegasus and Yakou, it fits.

Because the plot needs to be able to tell us its narrative backstory and give us a story to hear, not the other way around. When they decided to introduce this concept, they should've justified their newest addition to the plot, not just throw it infront of us without any preparation or develpment. It's not so much jumping to conclusions, as much as just stating a fact. They just aren't explained or justified beyond Daitokuji seeing an ominous tablet in some place, that has their likeness on that.We can't just fill in all the holes for them, after all. It's not much to expect and all.

But we can't have the plot explain us everything, either. If it did, it would make a very uninteresting story. While we do watch a story in order to watch everything unfold, sometimes it won't happen. No writer is perfect, and there will be no doubt unfinished threads left, whether accidentally or intentionally. Sometimes we are given only implications, clues, or additional details through symbolism, or else the story wouldn't be entertaining at all. There's a reason why some plot points are left vague on purpose or why the author refuses to answer a question and asks the audience to fill the holes in.

Take allegories, for instance. They rely on telling the story in a metaphoric manner, and unless one understands the hidden meaning, the story will stay incomplete. Or take ballads which use mystery as their element, which have to be filled in on the reader's own or with others. There are stories one cannot really understand without filling the details in with their own interpretations.

From the audience's view, of course this might seem like something that shouldn't be their task, because we want answers. But from the author's view, the unexplained parts make people question and discuss them, which means the story is given lengthier attention. Had the author's story answered everything, people would not question them as much. Just look at this very thread, which gave birth to much interesting discussion. Had the writers tied it up properly, this thread wouldn't exist. One less thing to discuss.

In the Sangenma's case, their backstory was there, scattered over. One just had to put the pieces together and get their story... More or less. But I already went over this with you in the Divine Level Cards thread. They weren't really thrown in there, because we were given an explanation on how they got to the Academia and why, however nonsensical it might be in terms of the original canon. Then there's their execution, but again, that's another story.

That's because no one saw the Egyptian Gods fully manifested until Atem summoned them, since he was the chosen Pharaoh to wield all three. Their actual appearance had been lost and unknown for quite sometime.

That's right.

The only reason Pegasus was able to design accurate facsimiles to their original forms, was because they appeared to him in his dreams through the power of the Millennium Eye. They revealed themselves to him. Which was again, all part of Shadi's master plot to orchestrate the revival of the Pharaoh and have their destinies intertwine so Atem would regain his memories.

While Pegasus seeing the Gods' form with the help of the Millennium Eye is certainly a possibility (which is a possibility I also considered), it must be kept in mind that the part with the God Cards was added on the anime's part. The manga kept it entirely ambiguous, we don't see much besides Pegasus attempting to translate Ra's hieroglyphs and him regretting the creation of the God Cards.

Also, the anime only shows us Pegasus deciding he'll take the wrath on the God Cards (under the control of the Millennium Eye), then the episode jumps to Pegasus' mansion, with him painting the portraits, then Pegasus falls asleep and has the dream with the God cards wrecking Egypt. We do not know what happened before he made the portraits. Which is why, I suppose, Poet believed that Pegasus took artistic license with the Gods' designs.

It was his dream that made him realize what he had just done, because Shadi told him the consequences of his act - namely, creating Duel Monsters. While everything played into Shadi's hands, Pegasus was not in full control of his actions due to being brainwashed by the Millennium Eye.