Thread: The Mechanics and Mysticism of Cards and Duel Monsters

Originally Posted by Arynis

What about surreal stories, then? Take The Exterminating Angel by Luis Bu�uel, for example. It is a story with very little storytelling, the events essentially unfold in front of you, while shrouding everything in mystery and not explaining anything at all. We don't know why the guests got stuck in the room, the only thing we see is them losing their humanity, and them suddenly realizing they are free to leave the house... then again, they get stuck in the church for absolutely no reason.

Yeah, but that's not YGO GX, though, is it? Those methods of storytelling have to fit the tone and context of the story's creation. You wouldn't use those methods on a Scooby-Doo episode or an episode of Naruto. YGO GX wasn't a mystery series. It was a Shonen Action/Card Game series. If suddenly Bleach started turning Mind-Screw on its viewers it'd get lambasted because it suddenly departed from its roots and presented itself as something it was not. You can't take someone's order of steak at your restaurant and then suddenly substitute it with tofu. They'll look at you weird and get mad. XD

The only one who can make sense out of the story is the audience itself. The watcher is left to his or her interpretations on the events. Without such intent, the mystery stays a mystery. There's nothing saying what happened for real. That's why people sit down and present their interpretations and think up something together. (Or, well, on their own.)

If that's how something presents itself, that's great. I love the movie "Waking Life" because its existential and philosophical examination of dreams and the nature of reality. It's people talking and discussing the philosophy and nature of reality in all sorts of disjointed yet interesting scenarios and environments as the protagonists grasps for clues on where he is, who he is, and what he is. And in the end you're not left with much answers on whether or not the main character is dreaming, alive, or even real at all.

But if I'm sitting down to watch "Live Free of Die Hard", I expect my story to be clear cut, presentable, and easy to follow amongst the action and badassery. I don't need any vagaries or mysteries because that's not what the story is presented as. It needs to meet its self-set standards of storytelling.

Why not both? It doesn't have to be exclusively a story or exclusively an allegory. The two could switch themselves or be applied simultaneously. The plot could tell us about what Judai is doing today, but it doesn't have to be necessarily "straightforward" on other things.

That's disjointed and confusing. You can't go from presenting a clear cut narrative with answers and set plot, to suddenly leaving things nebulous and up for the viewer's interpretation. Where does one end of the spectrum end, and the other begin? When do you know your expectations to have an answer will be met or not? Slamming both together and hoping for it to be something coherent and penetrable isn't realistic.

People like consistency, regardless of whether or not its an allegorical work of art, or a story with a concise beginning, middle, or end. Someone suddenly jumping up on stage to explain "Don Giovanni" mid-act in minute detail, would break the mood, and kill any sort of tension and enjoyment. Likewise the plot suddenly disappearing into the aether during G-Gundam would annoy and rankle fans who were hoping to see the storyline concluded clearly and concisely. You can't just switch it around like that and expect people to just accept it.

What questions, exactly? Let's look at those exact questions, then.

Are you talking about the questions GX left hanging or the questions DM answered?

There was also Kagemaru explaining how he sealed the Sangenma away and entrusted the keys to Samejima. He discovered the Sangenma having the power to grant eternal youth and world domination, but he needed the fighting spirits of duelists for it. Therefore, Kagemaru set up the Duel Academy for this sole Xanatos Gambit. All in the beginning of Episode 48.

You are right, though. Daitokuji's statements and Kagemaru's statements were the only canon things about the Sangenma, and I did build my way from there. But I never intended to declare them canon or if that's what the writers intended. It is merely an interpretation which you can choose to accept and use as an explanation or ignore and leave the hole empty.

That's in regards to the present but we have no clue as to where they came from, why they were made, or what they represent.

The story should offer us more than a possible interpretation. It should give us an answer as to why Plot Thread A went to Plot End X.

Not to my knowledge. Never heard of that one. Asked a Pegasus centric friend of mine. She didn't hear of it either. Are you sure about this one? Or I shall crunch it and add it to the misconception heap.

But yes, I suppose that is the most plausible conclusion, then.

I'm probably misremembering and thinking of the anime. So yeah. XD

I'll agree on this part, I liked the addition as well.

"So closely"? How the ka parts were any different? The only change I can recall is Ra going toothless, but that could be just Takahashi's art evolving.

No. Obelisk's appearance was pretty different compared to his original appearance as a Ka. Same goes for Ra. Osiris appeared a bit different too. There are subtleties in design that the Gods have in terms of their forms as ka, versus just Duel Monsters.

Well, yeah. Of course, he was a painter because of Cyndia. (Presumably, the original isn't explicit on this, but we know he loved painting pictures of her.) He went to Egypt because of Cyndia. He loved making portraits of her, which is exactly what saved him from dying to the Millennium Eye, and what made him so desirable to the Eye, making him the perfect puppet. Dying would have made him reunited with her right away (providing dying at the hands of a Millennium Item doesn't dump you in some special hell), but ironically, he stayed alive because of her in the long run. He had to take the slow path of 7 (manga) or who knows how many years (anime) in order to be with her again, for real.

Oh, poor Pegasus, you're such a pile of tragedy. *sniff*

Yeah, it is tragic. But in the end, he got what he wanted in a way, didn't he? At least, in the manga. He saw her again, and he was able to reunite with her in the end.

Originally Posted by Arynis

Regarding the spirit business, Yakou did mention that Pegasus give each and every card a spirit... I remember the discussion from the Pegasus' death thread you made, Mako. Although that was more of the heart of the duelist (eg. Keith's deck was used for putting Keith together). Despite Takahashi confirming that Pegasus is well in the Afterlife, I can't help but get a Fridge Horror-ey feel of Pegasus' soul being contained in each and every card. Although it would be more of a representation of him, rather than his soul literally being in there.

Just throwing this in here, seeing how it might be relevant to the whole card spirit ... soul ... thing.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

The RA Project was based on that theory and idea, yes. Every duelist pours a bit of their soul into their cards, so theoretically, if you could extract those pieces of soul and put them all together, you'd be able to create a copy of their spirit. The Wicked Avatar was going to use its corrupted magic to revive Pegasus's soul for Yakou, by using Kaiba Corporation's Duel Ring Server, which is a database for every single card in existence.

YGO R basically took a twisted perspective on the whole "duelists put a piece of their soul in their cards" with the Wicked Avatar, which in turn is a twisted representation of Ra.

He did state that, yes; but he also stated that Pegasus himself, as their creator put a piece of his soul into every card he created. And Avatar is actually the one who corrupted Tenma, not vice-versa.

In regards to the Neo-Spacians, here's how I always saw it. Judai's design concepts for them were based on his subconscious memories of his previous life as Hauo. If Hauo wielded the gentle darkness to fight the Light of Destruction, he could have known the Spacian spirits.

When the cards were made, the "cosmic rays" infused the cards with the actual spirits, which were still living in their own dimension/planet/Jupiter's ass/whatever.

Again, just my theory.

1. I wonder if the Sangenma were intended to be expanded on, or if they were just a Hitchcock MacGuffin.

2. Mako, if you could, I think a list of unanswered questions might help with the discussion if you believe they are relevant.

You can't just switch it around like that and expect people to just accept it.

You can if your franchise is based on quarterly Booster Sales. =P

Yeah, but that's not YGO GX, though, is it? Those methods of storytelling have to fit the tone and context of the story's creation. You wouldn't use those methods on a Scooby-Doo episode or an episode of Naruto. YGO GX wasn't a mystery series. It was a Shonen Action/Card Game series. If suddenly Bleach started turning Mind-Screw on its viewers it'd get lambasted because it suddenly departed from its roots and presented itself as something it was not. You can't take someone's order of steak at your restaurant and then suddenly substitute it with tofu. They'll look at you weird and get mad. XD

GX was a Slice of Life Mystery Horror Romance Action Adventure Sci-Fi Space Opera Drama Comedy Comic Book Existential Symbolic Post-Modern Deconstruction Card Game series. BU It was exactly what it needed to be, and nothing more, nothing less.

Also, Bleach did switch to Mind-Screw. Just Kubo-Tite Steak Sauce Brand Mind Screw.

~~~~~~~~~

Also, yeah, the Ye Olde Egyptian Gods back in Memory World, I think they were more "Egyptian-y". Obelisk had a head dress if memory serves.

Originally Posted by LeArk

1. I wonder if the Sangenma were intended to be expanded on, or if they were just a Hitchcock MacGuffin.

I hope so. I sincerely doubt they intended to just... leave them hanging like that. That would be the stupidest... to just intentionally make a parallel to the Egyptian God cards like that and then just abandon it. Something may have happened.

2. Mako, if you could, I think a list of unanswered questions might help with the discussion if you believe they are relevant.

Okay. There are the important and not so important so I'll focus on the ones that matter and are relevant. While omitting the ones we've already discussed, like the Neo Spacian question. There's....

How does Marcel have Sacred Beast support cards?

What exactly happened to the missing students of Obelisk Blue's old dormitory before they just were handwaved back into existence?

What ever happened to Misawa? And Hayato for that matter?

What were the origins and purpose of the Shadow Charms (aside from Millennium Item wannabes)? The only one we have any real knowledge or understanding of is Amanael's.

What happened to Echo & Amon?

What exactly was the nature of the Duel Monster spirit dimensions and why were there 12?

What was the Eye of Orichalchum and where did it come from?

What type of prince was Judai, and where in space was it? What planet was he on? Was it even in our universe or the Duel Monster spirit? And if that's the case..then is he a reincarnated Duel Monster?

What the **** was Trueman? Aside from a man made of cards of Darkness? Why did that whole Darkness incident choose to happen right then? And why was Seto Kaiba the only person in Domino City to be spared being ferried to the World of Darkness?

That's all I have right now.

You can if your franchise is based on quarterly Booster Sales. =P

And that's where the lesson of, "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should" comes into play.

GX was a Slice of Life Mystery Horror Romance Action Adventure Sci-Fi Space Opera Drama Comedy Comic Book Existential Symbolic Post-Modern Deconstruction Card Game series. BU It was exactly what it needed to be, and nothing more, nothing less.

You're trying to find order in chaos now. Somewhere along the line, an invasion of chaos occurred. It didn't know what it was doing at times. It diverted so many times I wonder if the writers were confused, told to do something at the last minute or what.

Also, Bleach did switch to Mind-Screw. Just Kubo-Tite Steak Sauce Brand Mind Screw.

I have no idea what you mean, unless you're referring to the anime. The manga's been pretty straightforward in terms of its plot and genre.

Also, yeah, the Ye Olde Egyptian Gods back in Memory World, I think they were more "Egyptian-y". Obelisk had a head dress if memory serves.
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Yes. Obelisk wears what appears to be a nemes headdress. Making him appear to be a demonic Pharaoh.

Originally Posted by cheesedude

In regards to the Neo-Spacians, here's how I always saw it. Judai's design concepts for them were based on his subconscious memories of his previous life as Hauo. If Hauo wielded the gentle darkness to fight the Light of Destruction, he could have known the Spacian spirits.

When the cards were made, the "cosmic rays" infused the cards with the actual spirits, which were still living in their own dimension/planet/Jupiter's ass/whatever.

Again, just my theory.

Holy crap, that's a very good theory. It's very parsimonious. It falls short a bit because we never actually saw the Neo-Spacians back in the past with Judai, but this is a very good theory. I like this one.

I hope so. I sincerely doubt they intended to just... leave them hanging like that. That would be the stupidest... to just intentionally make a parallel to the Egyptian God cards like that and then just abandon it. Something may have happened.

Executive meddling. Or they were just plot MacGuffins.

I have no idea what you mean, unless you're referring to the anime. The manga's been pretty straightforward in terms of its plot and genre.

Maybe not as mindscrew as other stuff, but the Fight Aizen in Fake Town was pretty headscrew-y near the end, and most recent chapters...

How does Marcel have Sacred Beast support cards?

My thought: Yubel-makes-shit powers, like she did with the corrupted Gem Beasts and making those Human-Duel Spirit mooks. Not quite the same, but I figure its due to her HURP A DURP powers she was pulling after Cobra fed her lovely Duel Energy.

What exactly happened to the missing students of Obelisk Blue's old dormitory before they just were handwaved back into existence?

Could of sworn they sort of, you know, died from the same shit Fubuki went through, that Fubuki survived due to "Darkness Mask lulz". Might be wrong.

What ever happened to Misawa? And Hayato for that matter?

1. Probably shagging Taniya in the 12 Dimensions. This is what we call "Put on a Bus".
2. I2 Card Designer. This is what we call "Put on a Bus".

What were the origins and purpose of the Shadow Charms (aside from Millennium Item wannabes)? The only one we have any real knowledge or understanding of is Amanael's.

Probably they were either made of the Obelisk Blue Students, if they weren't sent on Fubuki missions., and I think their general purpose was "Dark Game Enabler", more than anything. A lot of the Seven Stars plot just seemed to be a rather tongue-in-cheek Parody of the original series, the Millennium Items, and the God Cards and the general absurdity. :x

There's some times when a "What Do You Mean It's Not Symbolic" Deconstructive Parody series is just a "What Do You Mean It's Not Symbolic" Deconstructive Parody series to a point. The show did seem to rib itself a lot.

What exactly was the nature of the Duel Monster spirit dimensions and why were there 12?

Worlds with Monsters and its because its a ribbing of String Theory like Go-Enger did with Christmas World, Junk World, etc.

What was the Eye of Orichalchum and where did it come from?

A Deus Ex Machina out of Takegami's ass because they needed to explain Jim's eye bandages.

What the **** was Trueman? Aside from a man made of cards of Darkness? Why did that whole Darkness incident choose to happen right then? And why was Seto Kaiba the only person in Domino City to be spared being ferried to the World of Darkness?

I thought it was sort of obvious he was a Herald/Avatar of Darkness.

The writers needed to do something, and decided to play with Darkness who was a hanging thread from his original arc. Alternatively, they wanted a nice symbolic wrap-up arc, and the arc's motifs concerning Childhood Fears, The Fear of Adulthood, and Conformity VS Ambition seemed a fitting way to end a show based around High School of all things.

I believe the reason it was done that way instead of a third boxing match with The Light of Destruction has a lot to do with some differences with some Japanese writers, where as the West has more expectations of a solid story, some Japanese writers go for more Theme and Ideas. ( http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/loc...calization.htm ). What more fitting ending for a High School story then finding out its okay and you don't have to be afraid of the world after it. XD; Seems oddly fitting to me.

Because Seto Kaiba is made of freaking GARticles.

You're trying to find order in chaos now. Somewhere along the line, an invasion of chaos occurred. It didn't know what it was doing at times. It diverted so many times I wonder if the writers were confused, told to do something at the last minute or what.

In the end, it was a Slice of Life Mystery Horror Romance Action Adventure Sci-Fi Space Opera Drama Comedy Comic Book Existential Symbolic Post-Modern Deconstruction Card Game series.

To be serious, I think a lot of GX's faults probably came off of DM having such great ratings, and now with no source material, the Producers and Executives probably fell into the trap of "We can do whatever we want and it'll have great ratings.", which tended to most blatantly show with Mizuchi's arc, which ironically, was the basis of the entire plot line in Takahashi's original drafts.

It was probably due to whatever ratings GX had that 5D's was done the way it was done. 5D's despite some executive meddling that was sort of blatantly obvious in the Signers VS The Dark Signers (The Fiasco with Demak, Rainbow Ghey Healing Killed Noone Kiryu, Bomber VS Crow). Hell, when 5D's had to forcibly do the same thing they did with the Saiou arc with fan cards, they managed to make them work as part by making them less conspicuous then they could of been in many ways. :x

----------------------

Also still Wondering if DOMA arc was at all based on Alister Crowley's writings of Atlantis. Because if it was based off of his works at all, I sort of forgive it if they were trying to play with the whole "Thoth Tarot" mentioned in the manga. Hrm hrm.

Originally Posted by LeArk

Executive meddling. Or they were just plot MacGuffins.

That would suck either way... Such a shame.

Maybe not as mindscrew as other stuff, but the Fight Aizen in Fake Town was pretty headscrew-y near the end, and most recent chapters...

That's not really mind screwy, that's just the nature of fighting a villain who's so powerful and is capable of manipulating the senses of his opponents. He's just extremely powerful.

My thought: Yubel-makes-shit powers, like she did with the corrupted Gem Beasts and making those Human-Duel Spirit mooks. Not quite the same, but I figure its due to her HURP A DURP powers she was pulling after Cobra fed her lovely Duel Energy.

No, I'm talking about how before they went to the Duel Monster Spirit World, Marcel shared with Rei how his favorite card was "Phantasmal Martyrs." The card Kagemaru used aganist Judai. How did he get that card? That works as an explanation for his other ones I suppose, but he had Sacred Beast cards before he even got possessed.

Could of sworn they sort of, you know, died from the same shit Fubuki went through, that Fubuki survived due to "Darkness Mask lulz". Might be wrong.

Principal Samejima said that they were all found again and released by Kagemaru after they were experimented on or whatever. I want to know what type of weird experiments they endured.

1. Probably shagging Taniya in the 12 Dimensions. This is what we call "Put on a Bus".
2. I2 Card Designer. This is what we call "Put on a Bus".

See, that's just horrible. I hate it when that happens to characters in series. Especially series I like. Especially if they're characters I like. Misawa was a very interesting character and duelist. That was just such a waste of a character.

Probably they were either made of the Obelisk Blue Students, if they weren't sent on Fubuki missions., and I think their general purpose was "Dark Game Enabler", more than anything. A lot of the Seven Stars plot just seemed to be a rather tongue-in-cheek Parody of the original series, the Millennium Items, and the God Cards and the general absurdity. :x

The Obelisk Blue Students never died.

And there's nothing really absurd about how the Millennium Items or mythology of YGO worked at all. YGO is a fantasy/adventure shonen action series. The magical element was very much explained and balanced within its narrative. If it was a parody it was a senseless one. If that's the case, they should've focused more on telling their own story than just knocking on its previous one.

There's some times when a "What Do You Mean It's Not Symbolic" Deconstructive Parody series is just a "What Do You Mean It's Not Symbolic" Deconstructive Parody series to a point. The show did seem to rib itself a lot.

It had its moments where the comedy was great. It was its hilarity along with its endearing characters that made me get through Season 3. If it didn't have such funny moments, and characters they made so likeable and well designed I'd just lose my mind and just stop watching. But then it got stupid. The balance just was lost and I'm not sure how that happened or why. Sometimes when you try too hard to be something, you fail at it. And I think that's the case in some of its instances. It tried to do too much, and it ended up chaotic.

Worlds with Monsters and its because its a ribbing of String Theory like Go-Enger did with Christmas World, Junk World, etc.

I understand that part, okay. But what did each world represent? What was their order? There seemed to be a slight...variance in each one. It just would've been nice if they were explained or something, instead of "we go through magic door 1 to get to the new world!" Like some crazier version of Kingdom Hearts.

A Deus Ex Machina out of Takegami's ass because they needed to explain Jim's eye bandages.

You know...it always just takes me aback whenever you're just so forward like that. XDDD Okay, fair enough. I wasn't gonna say it because I was curious as to what could be said but...yeah. That's pretty much it.

I thought it was sort of obvious he was a Herald/Avatar of Darkness.

Well yeah, I got that. But I mean, why was he a man...of cards? Was it like...the darkness from people became sentient and just sort of..congealed together? That's the only reasoning I could think of. Which I think is kinda cool. The darkness got so thick that it got a mind of its own and just spawned...him. But it would be nice to have a specific answer or something. Seeing as how he had such uber hax powers and tore everyone a new *******. He was one of the worst villains in the series. A true monster. Also, why did people who were taken to the World of Darkness vanish from photos and stuff, and end up forgotten?

The writers needed to do something, and decided to play with Darkness who was a hanging thread from his original arc. Alternatively, they wanted a nice symbolic wrap-up arc, and the arc's motifs concerning Childhood Fears, The Fear of Adulthood, and Conformity VS Ambition seemed a fitting way to end a show based around High School of all things.

Yeah, I liked the themes and motifs. But it seemed rushed and random. Which I believe had to due with the fact they wanted to put 5Ds on the air ASAP, sadly.

I believe the reason it was done that way instead of a third boxing match with The Light of Destruction has a lot to do with some differences with some Japanese writers, where as the West has more expectations of a solid story, some Japanese writers go for more Theme and Ideas. ( http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/loc...calization.htm ). What more fitting ending for a High School story then finding out its okay and you don't have to be afraid of the world after it. XD; Seems oddly fitting to me.

Yeah I agree that thematically, the themes were fitting and nice. But its how those themes were presented that I have an issue with. But as I said, it probably had to due with them having the "Wrap it Up" music playing and thus, having to hurry.

Because Seto Kaiba is made of freaking GARticles.

While that may be true, it just always just struck me as a "Wha?" I mean, that's all cool for him, but that just sticks out so much you can't help but want to have that explained. If it were Yugi then you'd naturally think its cause he's Yugi and all. Kaiba is awesome as well but he has his own issues I would think could be exploited and yet...But yeah. That just struck me as weird, amusing, and surprising. XD

In the end, it was a Slice of Life Mystery Horror Romance Action Adventure Sci-Fi Space Opera Drama Comedy Comic Book Existential Symbolic Post-Modern Deconstruction Card Game series.

*head explodes*

To be serious, I think a lot of GX's faults probably came off of DM having such great ratings, and now with no source material, the Producers and Executives probably fell into the trap of "We can do whatever we want and it'll have great ratings.", which tended to most blatantly show with Mizuchi's arc, which ironically, was the basis of the entire plot line in Takahashi's original drafts.

So they became lazy? I guess I can see how that would be. That's unfortunate. But what do you mean Mizuchi's arc was the basis of the original plot line in Takahashi's original drafts? I'm..not sure what draft you're referring to.

It was probably due to whatever ratings GX had that 5D's was done the way it was done. 5D's despite some executive meddling that was sort of blatantly obvious in the Signers VS The Dark Signers (The Fiasco with Demak, Rainbow Ghey Healing Killed Noone Kiryu, Bomber VS Crow). Hell, when 5D's had to forcibly do the same thing they did with the Saiou arc with fan cards, they managed to make them work as part by making them less conspicuous then they could of been in many ways. :x

I'm glad 5Ds at least started strong. The Dark Signer arc had some holes but even then, it kept itself together and stayed on track. It didn't get sidetracked and even with those weaknesses you listed, it still managed to stay interesting and truly create some emotional scenes, conflicts, and epic confrontations. There was some awesome character growth and even romance. There was true loss, and fear. And the duels just felt really epic. The ending kinda sucked though. Godwin's ruination was probably what pissed me off the mouth. I disliked Crow's rather abrupt entrance but after awhile I felt endeared to him too. It just managed to stay afloat. They did try to work, which I was glad for. But now...well. I won't get into that. XD

Also still Wondering if DOMA arc was at all based on Alister Crowley's writings of Atlantis. Because if it was based off of his works at all, I sort of forgive it if they were trying to play with the whole "Thoth Tarot" mentioned in the manga. Hrm hrm.

I dunno. The monsters-living-with-humans element I can see a parallel to. But other than that, I'm not so sure of.

It's funny. I have the oddest...double think with Doma. In terms of presentation I just love Doma to death. The music, the duels, the animation, the dialogue, it just. It was so damn good in terms of that, for a filler. Lots of memorable moments. In terms of style and presentation it didn't fail.

But its the actual meat that bugs me. Mai's character. The plot contortion. The inconsistency with the source material. The ham with the legendary dragons. The brokenness of Dartz. The haxxorz of Orichalchos. And then...the ultimate, cheesy, stupid ham of the Legendary Knights looking like Yugi, Jou and Kaiba. My jaw still drops everytime he summons them because I sometimes think that some weird kid's fanfic just suddenly magically put itself on my tv. It's just so...silly.

But Doma is such a contradiction. Great presentation. But a weak story. What the hell is that? How do you do that? XD

No, I'm talking about how before they went to the Duel Monster Spirit World, Marcel shared with Rei how his favorite card was "Phantasmal Martyrs." The card Kagemaru used aganist Judai. How did he get that card? That works as an explanation for his other ones I suppose, but he had Sacred Beast cards before he even got possessed.

*Head Explodes*

Principal Samejima said that they were all found again and released by Kagemaru after they were experimented on or whatever. I want to know what type of weird experiments they endured.

Things would be so much simpler if they did die. >:< I could literally start answering 20 plot holes if they did die or never came back.

The balance just was lost and I'm not sure how that happened or why. Sometimes when you try too hard to be something, you fail at it. And I think that's the case in some of its instances. It tried to do too much, and it ended up chaotic.

Are we talking before or after Juudai's Excellent Desert Adventures. Because Dark World up until the final battle vs Dark Johan and then Yubel was Ugh. Just. Ugh. It was a mess, and I think the ideas were great, the way it went about it was bad even by GX's standards. There was no concept of pacing, which is something I have to give 5D's in the other hand, as for the most part, they've been able to have a well paced story, even if some of the early part of the pre-WRGP arc was just... "Durka durka this week". (Which might be the point...)

You know...it always just takes me aback whenever you're just so forward like that. XDDD Okay, fair enough. I wasn't gonna say it because I was curious as to what could be said but...yeah. That's pretty much it.

I'd suggest it was some sort of Aboriginal artifact... but the fact it only works with a specific meteor found only in another Dimension ruled by Lizard-Monkey King Brron. Wut wut. Just. Asspull. And I've told you before, I'm forged of equal amounts of idealism and realism. I love the series and will defend it, but I am also willing to admit it is a heavy sufferer of Bellasario's Maxim due to all the corporate interests.

Well yeah, I got that. But I mean, why was he a man...of cards? Was it like...the darkness from people became sentient and just sort of..congealed together? That's the only reasoning I could think of. Which I think is kinda cool. The darkness got so thick that it got a mind of its own and just spawned...him. But it would be nice to have a specific answer or something. Seeing as how he had such uber hax powers and tore everyone a new *******. He was one of the worst villains in the series. A true monster. Also, why did people who were taken to the World of Darkness vanish from photos and stuff, and end up forgotten?

Wasn't it something like, all the darkness from Duelist's hearts spilled onto the cards, and that fed into Darkness's world. Maybe he was just using the cards as mini gateways and used it as a body in our world from Darkness's? He just seemed to be the aspect of Darkness that whether by boredom of the writers, Fujiwara being a goofball, or Darkness having the most bizarre fashion sense, turned out to be Asian Michael Jackson Man.

Yeah I agree that thematically, the themes were fitting and nice. But its how those themes were presented that I have an issue with. But as I said, it probably had to due with them having the "Wrap it Up" music playing and thus, having to hurry.

Due to how it went from those lovely mini-arcs with the heroes and their families, and then Graduation fun. And... suddenly, Juudai is dropped into essentially "Definitely Ultimate Final Dungeon Beyond Ultimate Final Dungeon" Boss Battle Sequences where we might as well start blaring Battle on the Big Bridge? Yeah. That sort. Of bothered me how whip lashed it got. @.o At least inter-space the wrap up and Trueman's rendition of a prolonged music video of Thriller, guys.

While that may be true, it just always just struck me as a "Wha?" I mean, that's all cool for him, but that just sticks out so much you can't help but want to have that explained. If it were Yugi then you'd naturally think its cause he's Yugi and all. Kaiba is awesome as well but he has his own issues I would think could be exploited and yet...But yeah. That just struck me as weird, amusing, and surprising. XD

Alternatively, erasing Kaiba until possibly the end of it would just cause too much of a head paradox due to Kaiba being Kaiba and creating the mondern form of Duel Monsters with his technology, his school, and the general "It's so cool it billows out on its own" fashion sense.

So they became lazy? I guess I can see how that would be. That's unfortunate. But what do you mean Mizuchi's arc was the basis of the original plot line in Takahashi's original drafts? I'm..not sure what draft you're referring to.

Takahashi admitted Season 2 was taken from the basis of what would of been basically GX: the Movie. A central part of it apparently would of taken heavily in place in Domino City with Saiou as the Big Bad. And I think most of the movie's premise was sort of used with Mizuchi and her Monarch Brigade for a rough rough basis. Sadly (or not), it never got off the ground and we got the Season 2 arc. And Mizuchi's arc got hijacked by Demiurge and Dark God when they weren't the point. =X

I'm glad 5Ds at least started strong. The Dark Signer arc had some holes but even then, it kept itself together and stayed on track. It didn't get sidetracked and even with those weaknesses you listed, it still managed to stay interesting and truly create some emotional scenes, conflicts, and epic confrontations. There was some awesome character growth and even romance. There was true loss, and fear. And the duels just felt really epic. The ending kinda sucked though. Godwin's ruination was probably what pissed me off the mouth. I disliked Crow's rather abrupt entrance but after awhile I felt endeared to him too. It just managed to stay afloat. They did try to work, which I was glad for. But now...well. I won't get into that. XD

Yeah. Carly vs Jack is easily my favorite duel of the entire series, as it had great music, a great romance, a great tragedy, and just. God. That shit in the Japanese is the stuff classic, or at least endearing, stories are made of.

Hell, Aki vs Misty always struck me as very good, as she ended up, irony of ironies, the only one who tried to directly save a Dark Signer outright, thinking if she could just kill the god, she could save the Dark Signer's un-life, or at least give them rest without some hell god over their heads.

Godwin I think the biggest problem is HULK GODWIN, the rest seemed fairly sensible for a frustrated, exhausted, and burnt out man in his Whatever-ies who had all the shit Godwin had weighing on his shoulders like a lead weight. Had he not Bruce Bannered, I think there might be less frustration.

... And really, had they introduced Crow and maybe named dropped Kiryu back the Facility arc with Takasu and all, I think a lot of bitching for Crow would of gone down tremendously. BU

Originally Posted by LeArk

*Head Explodes*

ROTFL, exactly. I don't know why they did that!!! It's so random!

Things would be so much simpler if they did die. >:< I could literally start answering 20 plot holes if they did die or never came back.

LMAO, I know. I don't know why, but I guess its because they painted Kagemaru and Amanael as redeemed so it'd be "bad" to have them have...any long lasting or unforgivable sin on their record.

Are we talking before or after Juudai's Excellent Desert Adventures. Because Dark World up until the final battle vs Dark Johan and then Yubel was Ugh. Just. Ugh. It was a mess, and I think the ideas were great, the way it went about it was bad even by GX's standards. There was no concept of pacing, which is something I have to give 5D's in the other hand, as for the most part, they've been able to have a well paced story, even if some of the early part of the pre-WRGP arc was just... "Durka durka this week". (Which might be the point...)

LOL Dark World was shit. It was all a mess. And it was just utterly borked. Again. If it wasn't for the characters and funny moments and all it just. It really is mad. And yeah, the pacing was kinda insane. No. Very insane.

I'd suggest it was some sort of Aboriginal artifact... but the fact it only works with a specific meteor found only in another Dimension ruled by Lizard-Monkey King Brron. Wut wut. Just. Asspull. And I've told you before, I'm forged of equal amounts of idealism and realism. I love the series and will defend it, but I am also willing to admit it is a heavy sufferer of Bellasario's Maxim due to all the corporate interests.

It was so glaringly an asspull it just. I couldn't believe it. It's so goddarn random, and out of nowhere. The meteor. The...the fact its a hunk of rock from out of space. It's just. I have no clue. And yeah your honesty is refreshing and hilarious. XD

Wasn't it something like, all the darkness from Duelist's hearts spilled onto the cards, and that fed into Darkness's world. Maybe he was just using the cards as mini gateways and used it as a body in our world from Darkness's? He just seemed to be the aspect of Darkness that whether by boredom of the writers, Fujiwara being a goofball, or Darkness having the most bizarre fashion sense, turned out to be Asian Michael Jackson Man.

I guess. That kinda makes since. His fashion sense certainly was...unique. As was his attitude. He amuses me so much, but he also is a freakin' enigma. Not to mention his powers. How he's able to just..mimic anyone's deck...assume their shape, voice, memories, and the like. It's just...he's frighteningly overpowered. Poor O'Brien was screwed. And I love how he gets the Blair Witch-esque idea to record the duel with him, as if that'd help XDDD

Due to how it went from those lovely mini-arcs with the heroes and their families, and then Graduation fun. And... suddenly, Juudai is dropped into essentially "Definitely Ultimate Final Dungeon Beyond Ultimate Final Dungeon" Boss Battle Sequences where we might as well start blaring Battle on the Big Bridge? Yeah. That sort. Of bothered me how whip lashed it got. @.o At least inter-space the wrap up and Trueman's rendition of a prolonged music video of Thriller, guys.

ROTFL, Battle on the Big Bridge would've been so fitting for the Battle Royale Duel against Fujiwara. HA. Yeah it was just...so damn rushed. It was a zerg rush of DARKNESSU BOSSES.

Alternatively, erasing Kaiba until possibly the end of it would just cause too much of a head paradox due to Kaiba being Kaiba and creating the mondern form of Duel Monsters with his technology, his school, and the general "It's so cool it billows out on its own" fashion sense.

LOL I guess so.

Takahashi admitted Season 2 was taken from the basis of what would of been basically GX: the Movie. A central part of it apparently would of taken heavily in place in Domino City with Saiou as the Big Bad. And I think most of the movie's premise was sort of used with Mizuchi and her Monarch Brigade for a rough rough basis. Sadly (or not), it never got off the ground and we got the Season 2 arc. And Mizuchi's arc got hijacked by Demiurge and Dark God when they weren't the point. =X

Oh! That! Now that you mention it, that was awfully similar to the proposal. Ha. Now I'm gonna rewatch that season and pay attention to that aspect. That's neat.

Yeah. Carly vs Jack is easily my favorite duel of the entire series, as it had great music, a great romance, a great tragedy, and just. God. That shit in the Japanese is the stuff classic, or at least endearing, stories are made of.

Hell, Aki vs Misty always struck me as very good, as she ended up, irony of ironies, the only one who tried to directly save a Dark Signer outright, thinking if she could just kill the god, she could save the Dark Signer's un-life, or at least give them rest without some hell god over their heads.

Ha, those are my favorite duels too. You took the words right out of my mouth. Yes. Those are definitely one of that season's high points.

Godwin I think the biggest problem is HULK GODWIN, the rest seemed fairly sensible for a frustrated, exhausted, and burnt out man in his Whatever-ies who had all the shit Godwin had weighing on his shoulders like a lead weight. Had he not Bruce Bannered, I think there might be less frustration.

... And really, had they introduced Crow and maybe named dropped Kiryu back the Facility arc with Takasu and all, I think a lot of bitching for Crow would of gone down tremendously. BU

It was that, and the whole cliche, "I WILL BECOME A GOD!" ambition. He just seemed....more refined than that. I get the exhaustion and all but it just. Its the execution and randomness of it. Just..bleh. And the random buffing up was just so...hilariously stupid and insane. WHY DOES YGO DOES THIS NOW? Just random crap that ruins things. Like that Placido transformation. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THAT? Did they REALLY think that made him more threatening or cooler looking? What the freak? And I love how NO ONE in the show talks about that, or brings it up. Yusei never talks about how he saw that freaky transformation, or how Placido isn't human. It's just...forgotten.

Yeah, that would've definitely validated their existence more and made things so much smoother.

Originally Posted by LeArk

In the end, it was a Slice of Life Mystery Horror Romance Action Adventure Sci-Fi Space Opera Drama Comedy Comic Book Existential Symbolic Post-Modern Deconstruction Card Game series.

Best. Description. EVER!

Also still Wondering if DOMA arc was at all based on Alister Crowley's writings of Atlantis. Because if it was based off of his works at all, I sort of forgive it if they were trying to play with the whole "Thoth Tarot" mentioned in the manga. Hrm hrm.

I think asking Poet would be our best bet, because I'm not too familiar with Crowley's writing. Unfortunately, he's on a 1+ month holiday right now so he won't be back any time soon.

I recall him comparing the Orichalcos to the Light of Destruction in terms of how they work, however. Ala possessing people and resetting the world.

Although at a first glance, the Dragons' names are kinda Plato-ish. Then again, the writings on the Orichalcos were in Enochian, so.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

Yeah, but that's not YGO GX, though, is it? Those methods of storytelling have to fit the tone and context of the story's creation. You wouldn't use those methods on a Scooby-Doo episode or an episode of Naruto. YGO GX wasn't a mystery series. It was a Shonen Action/Card Game series. If suddenly Bleach started turning Mind-Screw on its viewers it'd get lambasted because it suddenly departed from its roots and presented itself as something it was not. You can't take someone's order of steak at your restaurant and then suddenly substitute it with tofu. They'll look at you weird and get mad. XD

LeArk kind of went on explaining the Mind Screw bit, so I'll skip this. And as LeArk said, GX was kinda... everything.

If that's how something presents itself, that's great. I love the movie "Waking Life" because its existential and philosophical examination of dreams and the nature of reality. It's people talking and discussing the philosophy and nature of reality in all sorts of disjointed yet interesting scenarios and environments as the protagonists grasps for clues on where he is, who he is, and what he is. And in the end you're not left with much answers on whether or not the main character is dreaming, alive, or even real at all.

But if I'm sitting down to watch "Live Free of Die Hard", I expect my story to be clear cut, presentable, and easy to follow amongst the action and badassery. I don't need any vagaries or mysteries because that's not what the story is presented as. It needs to meet its self-set standards of storytelling.

Fair enough.

That's disjointed and confusing. You can't go from presenting a clear cut narrative with answers and set plot, to suddenly leaving things nebulous and up for the viewer's interpretation. Where does one end of the spectrum end, and the other begin? When do you know your expectations to have an answer will be met or not? Slamming both together and hoping for it to be something coherent and penetrable isn't realistic.

People like consistency, regardless of whether or not its an allegorical work of art, or a story with a concise beginning, middle, or end. Someone suddenly jumping up on stage to explain "Don Giovanni" mid-act in minute detail, would break the mood, and kill any sort of tension and enjoyment. Likewise the plot suddenly disappearing into the aether during G-Gundam would annoy and rankle fans who were hoping to see the storyline concluded clearly and concisely. You can't just switch it around like that and expect people to just accept it.

But that's taking the extreme ends of both spectrum. There could be subtle shifts between both techniques.

That's in regards to the present but we have no clue as to where they came from, why they were made, or what they represent.

The story should offer us more than a possible interpretation. It should give us an answer as to why Plot Thread A went to Plot End X.

But what if it doesn't? You have no choice but to stick with an interpretation, then.

I'm probably misremembering and thinking of the anime. So yeah. XD

No worries. XD

No. Obelisk's appearance was pretty different compared to his original appearance as a Ka. Same goes for Ra. Osiris appeared a bit different too. There are subtleties in design that the Gods have in terms of their forms as ka, versus just Duel Monsters.

...I never noticed them. Dayum. I'll have to check them out, then. :|a

Yeah, it is tragic. But in the end, he got what he wanted in a way, didn't he? At least, in the manga. He saw her again, and he was able to reunite with her in the end.

Yes, he did, thanks to Word Of God finally clarifying it. The anime lets him live and leaves the entire issue ambiguous, although some clues seem to point towards other things. But that's another story and more of a hurp durp metapost material.

Originally Posted by LeArk

Wasn't it something like, all the darkness from Duelist's hearts spilled onto the cards, and that fed into Darkness's world. Maybe he was just using the cards as mini gateways and used it as a body in our world from Darkness's? He just seemed to be the aspect of Darkness that whether by boredom of the writers, Fujiwara being a goofball, or Darkness having the most bizarre fashion sense, turned out to be Asian Michael Jackson Man.

Yeah, something like that. The darkness in people's hearts were reflected in the cards, dyeing them with darkness, which then fed into Darkness' world. Perhaps so much darkness accumulated that it somehow gave birth to Trueman. Another interpretation is that Trueman is somehow an aspect of Darkness, like some kind of a split off representation. A manifestation. Kinda like how the Doctor had the Valeyard running around. Except Trueman isn't really an opposite of Darkness' nature or anything.

As for the mimicking, maybe he's really just a genderflipped Rei Ayanami running around and forcing people into Instrumentality by taking on forms of loved ones. Since well, the Darkness Arc is something along Evangelion's Instrumentality. And Darkness himself is Lilith. Which leads us back to how Trueman is some odd manifestation of Darkness ala Rei running around with Lilith's soul. *puts on Komm Susser Tod*

Originally Posted by LeArk

Due to how it went from those lovely mini-arcs with the heroes and their families, and then Graduation fun. And... suddenly, Juudai is dropped into essentially "Definitely Ultimate Final Dungeon Beyond Ultimate Final Dungeon" Boss Battle Sequences where we might as well start blaring Battle on the Big Bridge? Yeah. That sort. Of bothered me how whip lashed it got. @.o At least inter-space the wrap up and Trueman's rendition of a prolonged music video of Thriller, guys.

Sounds like Earthbound to me. You fight silly creatures, collect melodies in a Sound Stone, prepare for the battle with Giygas--- Hey, wait a second. What do you mean we must travel in time? What do you mean our souls must be put into robots? What do you mean we can't come back to our own time?! And then the party is left in the past, in robot form, to fight the embodiment of evil and burn up the fighters of justice with the rest of the garbage of the universe.

Originally Posted by Arynis

But that's taking the extreme ends of both spectrum. There could be subtle shifts between both techniques.

Extreme or not, any shift is going to start presenting itself as troublesome to the viewer because they aren't prepared or expecting such a change in the presentation's tone. And GX was far from subtle at all in how it chaotically bounced around, unable to figure out how or what it was going to do.

But what if it doesn't? You have no choice but to stick with an interpretation, then.

If it doesn't, then that's a fault in the story.

...I never noticed them. Dayum. I'll have to check them out, then. a

When Yugi played "Divine Evolution" to turn Obelisk into "Obelisk the Progenitor", he assumed his original Ka appearance. The artwork of the playable Obelisk is its original Ka appearance. *nods*

Yes, he did, thanks to Word Of God finally clarifying it. The anime lets him live and leaves the entire issue ambiguous, although some clues seem to point towards other things. But that's another story and more of a hurp durp metapost material.

I always figured he'd be happy in death if he got to see his lover again. Since thats who he'd been living for in the end.

Yeah, something like that. The darkness in people's hearts were reflected in the cards, dyeing them with darkness, which then fed into Darkness' world. Perhaps so much darkness accumulated that it somehow gave birth to Trueman. Another interpretation is that Trueman is somehow an aspect of Darkness, like some kind of a split off representation. A manifestation. Kinda like how the Doctor had the Valeyard running around. Except Trueman isn't really an opposite of Darkness' nature or anything.

That's interesting. But yeah, I thought he was a result of darkness spawning him into existence as well. Him being an offshoot of darkness would kinda fit, but Darkness never states this, like he does when he calls Fujiwara being merely possessed by an offshoot of his.

As for the mimicking, maybe he's really just a genderflipped Rei Ayanami running around and forcing people into Instrumentality by taking on forms of loved ones. Since well, the Darkness Arc is something along Evangelion's Instrumentality. And Darkness himself is Lilith. Which leads us back to how Trueman is some odd manifestation of Darkness ala Rei running around with Lilith's soul. *puts on Komm Susser Tod*

....Oh God, don't make GX anymore confusing by pulling Evangelion into this. XDDDD

Omg, my head's already exploded twice in this thread. Don't make it happen a third time! T_T

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

Extreme or not, any shift is going to start presenting itself as troublesome to the viewer because they aren't prepared or expecting such a change in the presentation's tone. And GX was far from subtle at all in how it chaotically bounced around, unable to figure out how or what it was going to do.

Or GX is like Giygas. You Cannot Grasp The True Form Of The Story! BU

Well, there's a page on Genre Shift on TV Tropes, tho.

If it doesn't, then that's a fault in the story.

Does it have to be? It's not always explained where X or Y might come from. Aren't there cases like how Item Z may have existed, but it was never really elaborated on, because they were just... there? The plot expects you to accept its existence?

When Yugi played "Divine Evolution" to turn Obelisk into "Obelisk the Progenitor", he assumed his original Ka appearance. The artwork of the playable Obelisk is its original Ka appearance. *nods*

Ahh, that one. That makes more sense now. XD

I always figured he'd be happy in death if he got to see his lover again. Since thats who he'd been living for in the end.

Exactly. Although Takahashi mentioned he had to atone for his sins first, which could have taken 5 minutes or 1894 years. (Sorry, I just love my references.) So yeah, you could say he got the ultimate Happy Ending Reward in the end. XD And considering the Afterlife is eternal, he got to fulfill his vow for real.

That's interesting. But yeah, I thought he was a result of darkness spawning him into existence as well. Him being an offshoot of darkness would kinda fit, but Darkness never states this, like he does when he calls Fujiwara being merely possessed by an offshoot of his.

Darkness just likes his babies. It could be essentially both, representing humanity's darkness and the aspect of darkness. Like Rei Ayanami. She's human, yet she's... an Angel.

....Oh God, don't make GX anymore confusing by pulling Evangelion into this. XDDDD

Omg, my head's already exploded twice in this thread. Don't make it happen a third time! T_T

...Hey, you know me. And I love my crack crossovers.

Besides, this thread is all about our heads exploding. Nothing wrong with that~

Well, GX had quite a few Evangelion references. There's Asuka and Rei who are two female companions to Judai. There's Scar Scab Knight, which resembles an Evangelion. Then there's the Darkness Arc with ass its Instrumentality glory.

Johan can be... um... Kaworu :V

LMAO, I know. I don't know why, but I guess its because they painted Kagemaru and Amanael as redeemed so it'd be "bad" to have them have...any long lasting or unforgivable sin on their record.

... Though, didn't Daito's "Special Class" have a lot of those Blobs of Darkness eat students or am I miss remembering flashbacks again...

LOL Dark World was shit. It was all a mess. And it was just utterly borked. Again. If it wasn't for the characters and funny moments and all it just. It really is mad. And yeah, the pacing was kinda insane. No. Very insane.

Dark World was good ideas. Just they were obviously trying to do what is pretty bluntly a 52 episode arc in sane execution in 26 episodes. So we got the lulz tasticness insanity of it. Though,I don't think there really is much if any coordination. Hell, I think how Dark World was depicted went against the actual Konami canon which basically says the Dark World guys are a bunch of rather cool and all together guys with bad publicity since they look like demonic baby eaters. (Said Canon also says the Lightsworn are at war with them, and the Koa'ki Meiru are human super-weapons made from an extraterrestrial SPC-esque artifact (The Iron Core of Koa'ki Meiru).)

And just, ugh. That whole thing would of gone on better had they been given more time, but probably 5D's was in queue, and they were told to do things quickly.

But as to the twelve dimensions...

- We have the Gravekeeper World/Sand World with the three Suns.
- A Mining Hell ruled by Birdman... which sort of made the most sense by actually making the levels matter. Sorta kinda.
- Dark World itself.
- Yubel's floating glass palace IN THE MISSSST.
- And I believe Earth was considered part of the 12 Dimensions.
- Super Happy Fairytale Land
- ... Neo-Space?

... Which gives us 6~7. Heh.

It was so glaringly an asspull it just. I couldn't believe it. It's so goddarn random, and out of nowhere. The meteor. The...the fact its a hunk of rock from out of space. It's just. I have no clue. And yeah your honesty is refreshing and hilarious. XD

I'll take it its a rarity in the anime fandom. Very few people are willing to acknowledge the influence of corporate interests?

I guess. That kinda makes since. His fashion sense certainly was...unique. As was his attitude. He amuses me so much, but he also is a freakin' enigma. Not to mention his powers. How he's able to just..mimic anyone's deck...assume their shape, voice, memories, and the like. It's just...he's frighteningly overpowered.

For a 4th Disc recurring boss, I think he was justified in his overpowered nature. Though, I think a lot of his mimicking required:
A) Knowledge of the deck in a person's mind.
B) To have beaten the person and thus made them part of Darkness's collectives.
C) Probably memories was a result of "your darkness is all open in front of me, every guilt, dirty pleasure, bad memory, and trauma", as a connection to the cards, he could see people's selves open like a book.

Oh! That! Now that you mention it, that was awfully similar to the proposal. Ha. Now I'm gonna rewatch that season and pay attention to that aspect. That's neat.

I always liked Season 2 the best. Saiou was an insanely suave yet human villain, the threat was cool if a bit recycled one, and just the premise was great. Simple. Fun. And Space Dolphins.

It was that, and the whole cliche, "I WILL BECOME A GOD!" ambition. He just seemed....more refined than that. I get the exhaustion and all but it just. Its the execution and randomness of it. Just..bleh. And the random buffing up was just so...hilariously stupid and insane. WHY DOES YGO DOES THIS NOW? Just random crap that ruins things. Like that Placido transformation. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THAT? Did they REALLY think that made him more threatening or cooler looking? What the freak? And I love how NO ONE in the show talks about that, or brings it up. Yusei never talks about how he saw that freaky transformation, or how Placido isn't human. It's just...forgotten.

He was refined, but at the same time, even men like Godwin have a limit of "this is how much I'll take". He saw a situation that had ruined thousands of lives, taken his family away from him, killed others' families, turned innocent people into pawns for some cosmic joke. And I think he honestly snapped and/or took the only loophole he could figure was possible: Become a god, erase the world as it existed, rewrite reality in his ideal image, and just make the war end with no more suffering.

I think the transformations are a very rule of cool sort of thing that just ends up being Narm. Gainax can get away with it due to being good about it. Studio Gallop just. Studio Gallop.

And Yusei doesn't say a lot of things. He's a very stoic man of few words. Also talking about it probably has no point to him, or he realizes it's crazy talk.

Well, GX had quite a few Evangelion references.

Also the fact GX is generally a deconstruction of the sheer absurdity of its genre's gimmick. And Juudai's entire Season 3 arc being a complete deconstruction of what kind of issues a kid like Juudai would get from having all that weight and pressure on him.

... Making Season 4 the reconstruction, and thus Juudai is Schrodinger's Hero, being simultaneously Shinji Ikari and Simon the Digger.

Originally Posted by LeArk

And just, ugh. That whole thing would of gone on better had they been given more time, but probably 5D's was in queue, and they were told to do things quickly.

I'll take it its a rarity in the anime fandom. Very few people are willing to acknowledge the influence of corporate interests?

For some reason, "influence of corporate interests" sounds like an odd Expospeak Gag to me. XD Maybe it's just me not having encountered the expression before.

I do like your "Executive Meddling" points you bring up, however, as it is certainly a thing to consider. After all, we are talking about an anime with the primary intent to advertise booster packs, and this said influence is visible when it comes to the story's direction. The writers could be trying their best to tie in the advertising with the story in a sensible manner, for all we know. Then it works... or not. Things either get rushed, certain episodes feel out of place. Mind Screw ensues. Or they get Screwed By The Network and the story takes the Not As Planned detour with the audience left confused.

Or as Poet put it, the writers are raging nerds who are trying to Show Their Work despite their limitations.

It makes me wonder if the amount of problems are because of the Executive Meddling and the writers weren't allowed to do their thing, or if it's actual bad writing. But I guess it is something that's hard to say with a series like this.

But as to the twelve dimensions...

- We have the Gravekeeper World/Sand World with the three Suns.
- A Mining Hell ruled by Birdman... which sort of made the most sense by actually making the levels matter. Sorta kinda.
- Dark World itself.
- Yubel's floating glass palace IN THE MISSSST.
- And I believe Earth was considered part of the 12 Dimensions.
- Super Happy Fairytale Land
- ... Neo-Space?

... Which gives us 6~7. Heh.

Hmm, I wonder if the Spirit World in 5D's is related to any of those Dimensions? Or the both are two separate concepts, despite their similarities?

For a 4th Disc recurring boss, I think he was justified in his overpowered nature. Though, I think a lot of his mimicking required:
A) Knowledge of the deck in a person's mind.
B) To have beaten the person and thus made them part of Darkness's collectives.
C) Probably memories was a result of "your darkness is all open in front of me, every guilt, dirty pleasure, bad memory, and trauma", as a connection to the cards, he could see people's selves open like a book.

Seeing how Trueman manifested from the darkness reflected in cards, that would imply how he has knowledge of everyone's deck. And with the "cards reflect the personality of their owners" theme, Trueman could be able to understand his opponents.

Heck, didn't Takahashi say somewhere how he preferred real games (eg. board games, card games) over video games, where you don't face your opponent directly, because you are able to understand him/her better?

Thinking about the Darkness Arc and its themes, it could be a throwback to what Takahashi intended to use Duel Monsters as. The representation of the duelists' personality through their decks (Takahashi did mention it in the Gospel of Truth, but it wasn't really brought up in DM, was it?) and how you could understand a person through dueling (although this appeared in 5D's as well, via the whole "World of Speed" theme). Sans the "origin of the world" bit, that's just alchemy stuff.

Also the fact GX is generally a deconstruction of the sheer absurdity of its genre's gimmick. And Juudai's entire Season 3 arc being a complete deconstruction of what kind of issues a kid like Juudai would get from having all that weight and pressure on him.

True that, true that.

... Making Season 4 the reconstruction, and thus Juudai is Schrodinger's Hero, being simultaneously Shinji Ikari and Simon the Digger.

So GX is Evangelion and Rebuild of Evangelion at the same time? AWSM.

I think AFD's dimension/world is probably Black Magician Girl's world and Honest's world. Seems to be the same general "Eternal European Fable Land Full of Vistas, Castles, and Verdant Forests".

So GX is Evangelion and Rebuild of Evangelion at the same time? AWSM.

Basically. It does share a bunch of traits with Gurren Lagann in many respects. You could easily connect the Seven Stars arc to Episodes 1 to 8 of GL: The plot was simple, the characters were simple, good guys were good, bad guys were bad.

9 to 15 were equivalent to Saiou's arc. The heroes became more complex, traumas surfaced, the villains weren't so flat in their driving motivations, and you get the first semblances of a greater threat(s).

The Yubel Arc and 17 to 22 are the darkest arcs, showing the consequences of the hero's actions. The villains turn out to be loved ones driven by the same alien force as what drove the other big bad. Trauma ensues, shit gets really bad, and a lot of people start suffering badly for the events.

And then 23 to 27 and Darkness show the heroes pushed to their darkest hour, against an instrumentality-based enemy that wishes to suppressed everything against it, forced to face the future, and accept the full difficulties of eveything. And everything starts brimming with GARticles.

Or as Poet put it, the writers are raging nerds who are trying to Show Their Work despite their limitations.

After reading much of Poet's journal entries on the franchise, I'm going with this. The writers are well read dorks with a crummy and oppressive day job. I think Dark God and Demiurge show the writers are being forced to write some some pretty idiotic stuff.


Which isn't illogical, Gurren Lagann and GX are both basically kids' shows, both with "Growing Up" themes.

Originally Posted by LeArk

I think AFD's dimension/world is probably Black Magician Girl's world and Honest's world. Seems to be the same general "Eternal European Fable Land Full of Vistas, Castles, and Verdant Forests".

Hmm, that could be possible, aye.

Basically. It does share a bunch of traits with Gurren Lagann in many respects. [snip for saving space]

That's a good comparison there! I like it.

After reading much of Poet's journal entries on the franchise, I'm going with this. The writers are well read dorks with a crummy and oppressive day job. I think Dark God and Demiurge show the writers are being forced to write some some pretty idiotic stuff.

I'm curious how the writers would do if they weren't forced to follow booster pack schedules.

I think the 10th Anniversary Movie is a good example. Putting the length aside, which is probably another Executive Meddling due to the higher ups not wanting to strain the kids' eyes with the lengthy 3D movie (even more so if the decision to make it a 3D movie is one, because "3D is cool"), thus presenting a limitation not coming from the booster pack advertising this time around, we had an interesting story. The heroes' roles were balanced. A slight adventure aspect was there due to the shifting periods, and the variety of places. The villain was enigmatic and we were given an interesting moral dilemma over which side is right. (Both sides could be potentially bad or good, although it shifted more in the protagonists' favor. Because, well. Paradox is the villain.) And with the destruction of Duel Monsters at hand we were shown a Deconstruction of the entire franchise. Although the whole "You'll see more of Paradox in 5D's, gaiz" move could be another Executive Meddling to make people keep watching the series. (Although it does give Paradox a second chance at being either a hero or villain, because the protags kinda insta-deded him.)

Though, in the 10th Anniversary Book interview the director did say something along the lines that they wanted to go for something darker.

The Sin Monsters may have not been the most original concept, but Sin Paradox Dragon / Sin Truth Dragon were wicked.

With the new footage for the English release, things may change. I'm curious to see what they are planning.

Which isn't illogical, Gurren Lagann and GX are both basically kids' shows, both with "Growing Up" themes.

Good point.

Originally Posted by Arynis

Hmm, I wonder if the Spirit World in 5D's is related to any of those Dimensions? Or the both are two separate concepts, despite their similarities?

The timeline of the three series is the same. Logically, Spirit World also. In Orichalcos Arc, Yugi is went in a medieval town where dragons was sealed. Maybe even these place are located in the same dimensions because they are similars by theirs decors

Originally Posted by Arynis

Seeing how Trueman manifested from the darkness reflected in cards, that would imply how he has knowledge of everyone's deck. And with the "cards reflect the personality of their owners" theme, Trueman could be able to understand his opponents.

Heck, didn't Takahashi say somewhere how he preferred real games (eg. board games, card games) over video games, where you don't face your opponent directly, because you are able to understand him/her better?

Thinking about the Darkness Arc and its themes, it could be a throwback to what Takahashi intended to use Duel Monsters as. The representation of the duelists' personality through their decks (Takahashi did mention it in the Gospel of Truth, but it wasn't really brought up in DM, was it?) and how you could understand a person through dueling (although this appeared in 5D's as well, via the whole "World of Speed" theme). Sans the "origin of the world" bit, that's just alchemy stuff.

True that. He had mentionned also the links created by games, not only cards games because you can do the knowledge of several persons, even become friend with someone after have played to a game. It's all the magic in a game.

The representation of the duelists's personnalities thought theirs decks stay present in DM even If itsn't always clear. For example, Jono-Uchi owns a lot of warriors because he is a warrior himself: he never surrender, he fight until the end. Like during his duel against Marik. He continues to fight after he had taken Ra's attack when he physically hurted. Bakura is more complicate. He owns an occult game probably because Dark Bakura's presence inside him and of Amane's death. It's his way to say he must live with Dark Bakura inside him and don't forget Amane, the zombies reminds again and again she is died, she didn't live in the world of the living.

Originally Posted by Allana

The timeline of the three series is the same. Logically, Spirit World also. In Orichalcos Arc, Yugi is went in a medieval town where dragons was sealed. Maybe these place are located in the same dimensions.

That would make sense, too.

True that. He had mentionned also the links created by games, not only cards games because you can do the knowledge of several persons, even become friend with someone after have played to a game. It's all the magic in a game.

Aha. Gotcha.

The representation of the duelists's personnalities thought theirs decks stay present in DM even If itsn't always clear. For example, Jono-Uchi owns a lot of warriors because he is a warrior himself: he never surrender, he fight until the end. Like during his duel against Marik. He continues to fight after he had taken Ra's attack when he physically hurted. Bakura is more complicate. He owns an occult game probably because Dark Bakura's presence inside him and of Amane's death. It's his way to say he must live with Dark Bakura inside him and don't forget Amane, the zombies reminds again and again she is died.

I know that. I meant the theme actually being discussed in the series, like how Mako quoted Honest on it, or Darkness saying how Duel Monsters mirrors humanity. I don't think it was mentioned by the characters in DM in-universe. Takahashi mentioned this intention in the Gospel of Truth, but it wasn't Lampshaded in the series itself. I kinda meant GX pointing at the concept that way. Unless, again, my lack of knowledge of the anime is going to bite me in the rear. :|

Originally Posted by Arynis

I know that. I meant the theme actually being discussed in the series, like how Mako quoted Honest on it, or Darkness saying how Duel Monsters mirrors humanity. I don't think it was mentioned by the characters in DM in-universe. Takahashi mentioned this intention in the Gospel of Truth, but it wasn't Lampshaded in the series itself. I kinda meant GX pointing at the concept that way. Unless, again, my lack of knowledge of the anime is going to bite me in the rear.

Anybody had never mentionned this in DM in my knowledge, GX is apparently the first series to do it. I don't know for the manga, I don't own Memory Arc.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

What type of prince was Judai, and where in space was it? What planet was he on? Was it even in our universe or the Duel Monster spirit? And if that's the case..then is he a reincarnated Duel Monster?

I had actually thought for the longest time that it was mentioned somewhere that Judai was actually the Prince of Neo Space. I went back and checked, and this turns out not to have ever been stated. If it wasn't for the fact that we don't see any Neo-Spacians (or spirits in general) during his past life, I think that was would be plausible.

I think it was in spirit dimension, I recall the king guy being referred to as "King of the Duel Spirits". And despite that, we see no spirits. Perfect. Judai being a reincarnated Duel Monster would be an interesting twist, but I don't think that one works. Darkness states he can't absorb Judai into his World because he has the soul of both a human and Duel Monster in him. If he was reincarnated Duel Monster, then his soul would be that of two Duel Monsters.

In regards to the twelve dimensions, a user on the Yu-Gi-Oh! wiki has this theory on his user page, which I always thought was quite nice, though it takes some of its basis from the actual card game lore, with the one dimesion being the human world. The rest of this post are his words, not mine:

• The place where the Legendary Dragons are. (This one appears to be the realm of Fairys. Dark Magician Girl is from here. Kaibaman may be as well; many inhabitants of this dimension are seen cheering him on in GX. As of 5D's, it seems likely that this dimension is the Ancient Forest; very possible, as until then we have only seen interiors.)
• The vast desert. (The Rock Spirit, Sand Moth, Sand Stone, and the Three Masked Knights live here)
• Neo Space (The Neo-Spacians, Yubel, and quite probably her other forms are from here. This is also the dimension most in danger from the Light of Destruction.)
• The Dark World. (Freed, Rahz, the Dark Worldies, most Fiends, Total Defense Shogun, Harpie's Brother, various low level monsters, and quite possibly Freed's above-mentioned army are from here.)
• A bleak, rocky dimension that resembles The World That Never Was from Kingdom Hearts. (Yubel has a castle here. Exodia is from here, and perhaps the Sacred Beasts. This may be the realm of "legendary" monsters.)
• The Different Dimension. (Not in the anime. The D.D.s, Gagagigo, his bunch, and possibly the Charmers are from here.)
• Zombie World.
• Otherworld - The "A" Zone. Home to the Aliens, and likely the Worms and most of Depre Scott's cards.
• This one may be grasping at straws, but The Sanctuary in the Sky doesn't seem to fit in any of the above, therefore, it must exist in another, home to the Archlords and Synthetic Angels. Based on the architecture and general atmosphere, Realm of Light is also in this dimension, and thus it is home to the Lightsworns. One other monster that meets the qualifications for inhabiting here, is Shinato, King of a Higher Plane. Assuming he is the ruler, this dimension may be called the Higher Plane.
• Upon closer examination, the Verdant Sanctuary seems to be one as well, home to the Insects (and Plants?).
• And for conjecture's sake, I'd imagine that the last remaining dimension would be a vast sea. Perhaps it's called Water World?

That's a pretty interesting theory regarding the Dimension Worlds, Cheesedude. Although while I recall the King being referred to as "King of the Duel Spirits" in the Janime summary, I don't recall the King being referred to with such a title.

The whole Dimension World thing reminds me of Duelist Kingdom, for some odd reason. Just like how the Duelist Kingdom Island had several areas with differing fields (Eg. Forest, Sea, Graveyard), there were various dimensions housing different monsters and having a different structure.

Originally Posted by Arynis

Or GX is like Giygas. You Cannot Grasp The True Form Of The Story! BU

Well, there's a page on Genre Shift on TV Tropes, tho.

If GX is Giygas, then you're saying its so utterly insane, powerful and destructive that it has no clue what its doing and only wishes to consume and destroy by even going back into the past and annihilating whatever has come before and after it? XDDDD

I guess that's *one* way to look at its canon-bending!

Does it have to be? It's not always explained where X or Y might come from. Aren't there cases like how Item Z may have existed, but it was never really elaborated on, because they were just... there? The plot expects you to accept its existence?

Yeah, but good writing shouldn't and doesn't rely on that. Things are either explained, implied, or justified in some form or fashion. When things have to be handwaved or literally retconned to fit, then that obviously shows some form of weakness in the storytelling.

Exactly. Although Takahashi mentioned he had to atone for his sins first, which could have taken 5 minutes or 1894 years. (Sorry, I just love my references.) So yeah, you could say he got the ultimate Happy Ending Reward in the end. XD And considering the Afterlife is eternal, he got to fulfill his vow for real.

If you think about it, he didn't do anything that bad. I mean yeah, he stole the souls of three people, tried to steal someone's company and made his victims worried and feel the pain and loss of losing someone dear. But he gave them back. It's not like he killed anyone, rofl XD

Darkness just likes his babies. It could be essentially both, representing humanity's darkness and the aspect of darkness. Like Rei Ayanami. She's human, yet she's... an Angel.

Do not compare that horrible monstrosity to the tragic yet endearing character that is her. >O

But I digress. If we somehow saw that there were multiple Darkness's in a fish tank somewhere, smiling and waving at us, I'd probably just turn off the tv, and burn it.

...Hey, you know me. And I love my crack crossovers.

Besides, this thread is all about our heads exploding. Nothing wrong with that~

Nothing wrong with it, except the splattered bits of brain and skull on my keyboard and screen. But hey, it does get rid of my chronic headaches!

Well, GX had quite a few Evangelion references. There's Asuka and Rei who are two female companions to Judai. There's Scar Scab Knight, which resembles an Evangelion. Then there's the Darkness Arc with ass its Instrumentality glory.

Johan can be... um... Kaworu :V

Yeah. The Eva references were rather nifty and amusing. But I never thought of the Darkness arc as being a reference to the Instrumentality Project. Wow. That's...creepy.

Johan as Kaworu? ROFL.

Originally Posted by cheesedude

I had actually thought for the longest time that it was mentioned somewhere that Judai was actually the Prince of Neo Space. I went back and checked, and this turns out not to have ever been stated. If it wasn't for the fact that we don't see any Neo-Spacians (or spirits in general) during his past life, I think that was would be plausible.

Exactly. That's the only problem with it sadly. Hell, we don't even know what Judai was even a prince of.

I think it was in spirit dimension, I recall the king guy being referred to as "King of the Duel Spirits". And despite that, we see no spirits. Perfect. Judai being a reincarnated Duel Monster would be an interesting twist, but I don't think that one works. Darkness states he can't absorb Judai into his World because he has the soul of both a human and Duel Monster in him. If he was reincarnated Duel Monster, then his soul would be that of two Duel Monsters.

Well if he's living in the world of Duel Spirits, that makes him basically a duel spirit. Which is hella bizarre. Maybe when he transmigrated his soul changed or something?

In regards to the twelve dimensions, a user on the Yu-Gi-Oh! wiki has this theory on his user page, which I always thought was quite nice, though it takes some of its basis from the actual card game lore, with the one dimesion being the human world. The rest of this post are his words, not mine:

• The place where the Legendary Dragons are. (This one appears to be the realm of Fairys. Dark Magician Girl is from here. Kaibaman may be as well; many inhabitants of this dimension are seen cheering him on in GX. As of 5D's, it seems likely that this dimension is the Ancient Forest; very possible, as until then we have only seen interiors.)
• The vast desert. (The Rock Spirit, Sand Moth, Sand Stone, and the Three Masked Knights live here)
• Neo Space (The Neo-Spacians, Yubel, and quite probably her other forms are from here. This is also the dimension most in danger from the Light of Destruction.)
• The Dark World. (Freed, Rahz, the Dark Worldies, most Fiends, Total Defense Shogun, Harpie's Brother, various low level monsters, and quite possibly Freed's above-mentioned army are from here.)
• A bleak, rocky dimension that resembles The World That Never Was from Kingdom Hearts. (Yubel has a castle here. Exodia is from here, and perhaps the Sacred Beasts. This may be the realm of "legendary" monsters.)
• The Different Dimension. (Not in the anime. The D.D.s, Gagagigo, his bunch, and possibly the Charmers are from here.)
• Zombie World.
• Otherworld - The "A" Zone. Home to the Aliens, and likely the Worms and most of Depre Scott's cards.
• This one may be grasping at straws, but The Sanctuary in the Sky doesn't seem to fit in any of the above, therefore, it must exist in another, home to the Archlords and Synthetic Angels. Based on the architecture and general atmosphere, Realm of Light is also in this dimension, and thus it is home to the Lightsworns. One other monster that meets the qualifications for inhabiting here, is Shinato, King of a Higher Plane. Assuming he is the ruler, this dimension may be called the Higher Plane.
• Upon closer examination, the Verdant Sanctuary seems to be one as well, home to the Insects (and Plants?).
• And for conjecture's sake, I'd imagine that the last remaining dimension would be a vast sea. Perhaps it's called Water World?

Wow. This is...very fascinating! Oh man. But still there are some questions I have.

Why does Dark Magician Girl live in the world of Duel Monsters in the first place? For one, she passed on to the afterlife with Mahad and Atem, and all the other Priests when Atem finally was able to pass on thanks to Yugi. She, like Mahad, were humans before being Ka, so...if she passed on to the afterlife..how can she be in the Duel Monster Spirit Realm?

Oh. And Dark Sage. Dark Sage is basically an aged Dark Magician. So...why is there a Dark Sage when Dark Magician should also be in the afterlife too?

Exodia is a God. Who was sealed beneath Egypt. So yeah...why would he be...in a Duel Monster Spirit Realm too?

These questions aren't really a stab at the theory. The theory itself makes some sense and is actually really cool. It's more a stab at the whole concept of a Duel Monster Spirit World in the first place. At least, in terms of its depiction of who inhabits it. These problems come up because originally, they weren't supposed to be in another world in the first place.

But this break down sounds really cool. I do like it.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

Why does Dark Magician Girl live in the world of Duel Monsters in the first place? For one, she passed on to the afterlife with Mahad and Atem, and all the other Priests when Atem finally was able to pass on thanks to Yugi. She, like Mahad, were humans before being Ka, so...if she passed on to the afterlife..how can she be in the Duel Monster Spirit Realm?

The many uses of Black Magician Girl never really made much sense, even in terms of incoherent Duel Monsters Worlds. She is, in manga canon, Mana's Ka. A spirit born of mana's heart. But in the anime, she is a monster from the Duel Monsters world too, seemingly with some influence among the naked fairies and such. Despite the world being saved after Doma, she still seems fit to enter into the world for jokes in GX and she seems to be alive in Atem's deck during the Ceremonial Duel. She is also in the afterlife with the Pharaoh and his Priests.

It would be alright if it were established that this is a different Black Magician Girl, but she always has the same voice actress (even in the Virtual World). I think things would have been simpler if they'd just used a different monster. At least she doesn't appear in Minus World. Eh, I don't know why I bother. The anime canon is 99% Shin Yoshida's trolling.

Originally Posted by Ryusaki

The many uses of Black Magician Girl never really made much sense, even in terms of incoherent Duel Monsters Worlds. She is, in manga canon, Mana's Ka. A spirit born of mana's heart. But in the anime, she is a monster from the Duel Monsters world too, seemingly with some influence among the naked fairies and such. Despite the world being saved after Doma, she still seems fit to enter into the world for jokes in GX and she seems to be alive in Atem's deck during the Ceremonial Duel. She is also in the afterlife with the Pharaoh and his Priests.

Exactly. How can you be two at once? And somewhere along the line she became the Dark Magician Girl as well, just as Mahad became the Dark Magician. So what I don't get is exactly that. How do you exist in both places at once?

It would be alright if it were established that this is a different Black Magician Girl, but she always has the same voice actress (even in the Virtual World). I think things would have been simpler if they'd just used a different monster. At least she doesn't appear in Minus World. Eh, I don't know why I bother. The anime canon is 99% Shin Yoshida's trolling.

I love seeing Dark Magician Girl again but there should be some consistency. Fan service should at least have some sort of basis or context within the story. It was bad enough we had the Dark Sage in Minus World.

Originally Posted by cheesedude

I had actually thought for the longest time that it was mentioned somewhere that Judai was actually the Prince of Neo Space. I went back and checked, and this turns out not to have ever been stated. If it wasn't for the fact that we don't see any Neo-Spacians (or spirits in general) during his past life, I think that was would be plausible.

I think it was in spirit dimension, I recall the king guy being referred to as "King of the Duel Spirits". And despite that, we see no spirits. Perfect. Judai being a reincarnated Duel Monster would be an interesting twist, but I don't think that one works. Darkness states he can't absorb Judai into his World because he has the soul of both a human and Duel Monster in him. If he was reincarnated Duel Monster, then his soul would be that of two Duel Monsters.

In regards to the twelve dimensions, a user on the Yu-Gi-Oh! wiki has this theory on his user page, which I always thought was quite nice, though it takes some of its basis from the actual card game lore, with the one dimesion being the human world. The rest of this post are his words, not mine:

• The place where the Legendary Dragons are. (This one appears to be the realm of Fairys. Dark Magician Girl is from here. Kaibaman may be as well; many inhabitants of this dimension are seen cheering him on in GX. As of 5D's, it seems likely that this dimension is the Ancient Forest; very possible, as until then we have only seen interiors.)
• The vast desert. (The Rock Spirit, Sand Moth, Sand Stone, and the Three Masked Knights live here)
• Neo Space (The Neo-Spacians, Yubel, and quite probably her other forms are from here. This is also the dimension most in danger from the Light of Destruction.)
• The Dark World. (Freed, Rahz, the Dark Worldies, most Fiends, Total Defense Shogun, Harpie's Brother, various low level monsters, and quite possibly Freed's above-mentioned army are from here.)
• A bleak, rocky dimension that resembles The World That Never Was from Kingdom Hearts. (Yubel has a castle here. Exodia is from here, and perhaps the Sacred Beasts. This may be the realm of "legendary" monsters.)
• The Different Dimension. (Not in the anime. The D.D.s, Gagagigo, his bunch, and possibly the Charmers are from here.)
• Zombie World.
• Otherworld - The "A" Zone. Home to the Aliens, and likely the Worms and most of Depre Scott's cards.
• This one may be grasping at straws, but The Sanctuary in the Sky doesn't seem to fit in any of the above, therefore, it must exist in another, home to the Archlords and Synthetic Angels. Based on the architecture and general atmosphere, Realm of Light is also in this dimension, and thus it is home to the Lightsworns. One other monster that meets the qualifications for inhabiting here, is Shinato, King of a Higher Plane. Assuming he is the ruler, this dimension may be called the Higher Plane.
• Upon closer examination, the Verdant Sanctuary seems to be one as well, home to the Insects (and Plants?).
• And for conjecture's sake, I'd imagine that the last remaining dimension would be a vast sea. Perhaps it's called Water World?

It's a pretty interesting theory!

For the Water World, perhaps Reptiles can be included in this category: the Tyrant Neptune and several Water type monster are Reptiles types.

The Forest seems me more a appropriate place to be a home. In this place, Insect as well Plant but Beast and Beast Warrior has a place where they can be located. The Verdant Sanctuary can be only a part of this place because this is sanctuary.

Fire type monsters can be include in the desert considering this place as a hot place. This desert can be also the location of Rock type monsters. The Dark World seems me the correct location for the Three Masked Knight: they appears by the Marcel's actions in the Dark World.

In the Lightsworms dimension can be possibly included Darklords or Fallen Angels. I can easily imagine a Realm of Light and Realm of Darkness in this dimensions. Light angels and Dark angels.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

Well if he's living in the world of Duel Spirits, that makes him basically a duel spirit. Which is hella bizarre. Maybe when he transmigrated his soul changed or something?

Not necessarily. There were plenty of humans in Dark World, and that was clearly one of the spirit dimensions.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

Why does Dark Magician Girl live in the world of Duel Monsters in the first place? For one, she passed on to the afterlife with Mahad and Atem, and all the other Priests when Atem finally was able to pass on thanks to Yugi. She, like Mahad, were humans before being Ka, so...if she passed on to the afterlife..how can she be in the Duel Monster Spirit Realm?

Identical voice actress aside, I also treated Yugi's DMG and the spirit version to be separate DMGs. There can be more than one of the same spirit, that was shown prominently in Birdman's realm. But yeah, it would be nice if that was clarified in-canon.

Here's something else. It makes no sense for there to be Machine-type Duel Spirits, but there very clearly are. Does it have to be assumed that the spirit predates the card? Due to the inherent magic in Duel Monsters, perhaps the creation of a card also creates that card's spirit in certain cases.

Or better yet, their "spirits" were created by the human-like Duel spirits, just as humans created machines in the first place. The use of "spirit" is loose here, since they're clearly solid in their own dimensions regardless.

Again, all credit for the 12 dimensions theory goes to Rodtheanimegod4ever on the YGO wiki.

Originally Posted by cheesedude

Not necessarily. There were plenty of humans in Dark World, and that was clearly one of the spirit dimensions.

But they may look human, but...they aren't. They're residing in a spiritual realm of duel monsters....

Identical voice actress aside, I also treated Yugi's DMG and the spirit version to be separate DMGs. There can be more than one of the same spirit, that was shown prominently in Birdman's realm. But yeah, it would be nice if that was clarified in-canon.

How..can there be more than one Dark Magician Girl? That's a unique ka the represents Mana. Mana's ka, is what created her. She came from her. Dark Magician Girl *is* her. So how can there be more than one of a unique, signature ka? More than one Mana?

At the end of Doma, Dark Magician Girl even says that Atem and her will meet again, before going silent. Which was clearly a reference to the Memory World. She also addresses Atem as Master. Which is how Mana addressed Atem as well.

Here's something else. It makes no sense for there to be Machine-type Duel Spirits, but there very clearly are. Does it have to be assumed that the spirit predates the card? Due to the inherent magic in Duel Monsters, perhaps the creation of a card also creates that card's spirit in certain cases.

That's the only way that insanity makes any sense. Although I figure Cyber Dragon has some form of organic element inside that metallic casing, since it is called "Cyber" Dragon. I figure its a cybernetic dragon.

Or better yet, their "spirits" were created by the human-like Duel spirits, just as humans created machines in the first place. The use of "spirit" is loose here, since they're clearly solid in their own dimensions regardless.

Again, all credit for the 12 dimensions theory goes to Rodtheanimegod4ever on the YGO wiki.

I suppose that's possible, but still. They seem to have some sort of sentience and life. So yeah.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

If GX is Giygas, then you're saying its so utterly insane, powerful and destructive that it has no clue what its doing and only wishes to consume and destroy by even going back into the past and annihilating whatever has come before and after it? XDDDD

I guess that's *one* way to look at its canon-bending!

Oh, lawl. Well, if you want to. Just make sure it doesn't make you its meal. Or you'll have to pray. Oh wait, this isn't a video game, so no player to save you and defeat Giygas.

Yeah, but good writing shouldn't and doesn't rely on that. Things are either explained, implied, or justified in some form or fashion. When things have to be handwaved or literally retconned to fit, then that obviously shows some form of weakness in the storytelling.

Fair enough. But no story will be perfect like that. Even now and then, something inexplicable might pop up. Maybe the author didn't do their research. Perhaps the story is handled by multiple writers and one of them was a Writer On Board. Or they were lazy, or didn't care. Or it could have been entirely accidental they didn't catch on until much later.

Or things just stay vague and we start thinking about it, realizing something is missing. The author may have not deemed it a necessary detail, in which case we need us a Bellisario's Maxim.

If you think about it, he didn't do anything that bad. I mean yeah, he stole the souls of three people, tried to steal someone's company and made his victims worried and feel the pain and loss of losing someone dear. But he gave them back. It's not like he killed anyone, rofl XD

True that. He killed Keith, though. Then again, Keith was a jerkass who cheated and beat up Yugi.

Although who knows what other acts he may have done. He had to learn of the Millennium Eye's abilities somehow, didn't he?

Or to tie in with the 10th Anniversary Movie, he had to atone for creating a game that's not quite a game which eventually caused much anguish for the world.

Or maybe he just found himself with a confused Cyndia who proceeded to unleash her fury on him. That should require enough atoning for his sins. Then all was well, of course.

Do not compare that horrible monstrosity to the tragic yet endearing character that is her. >O

But I digress. If we somehow saw that there were multiple Darkness's in a fish tank somewhere, smiling and waving at us, I'd probably just turn off the tv, and burn it.

Hey hey, I was comparing roles only! *gently pats Rei*

On which note, have no fear, Mako. You can have Trueman...Truemen in a fishtank instead.

Spoiler: Come and see!

And yes, you are welcome.

Nothing wrong with it, except the splattered bits of brain and skull on my keyboard and screen. But hey, it does get rid of my chronic headaches!

I guess the above isn't helping at all, then.

Yeah. The Eva references were rather nifty and amusing. But I never thought of the Darkness arc as being a reference to the Instrumentality Project. Wow. That's...creepy.

Johan as Kaworu? ROFL.

Yep, pretty much. Darkness' plan is essentially the Human Instrumentality Project, with Trueman being the Reis who collect everyone's souls.

Well, yeah. Except Johan didn't kill any kittens.

Exactly. That's the only problem with it sadly. Hell, we don't even know what Judai was even a prince of.

Yeah... We know he's the Supreme King who wields the Power of Gentle Darkness. Maybe he was the King of his dimension? (Well, Prince first. Then King.)

Well if he's living in the world of Duel Spirits, that makes him basically a duel spirit. Which is hella bizarre. Maybe when he transmigrated his soul changed or something?

Maybe he gained enough personality and sentience through his existence as a Duel Spirit that it made him human? Maybe he's his own ka? XD (Or alternately, his normal human self would be the ba, and his dark, Supreme King side with the Power Of Gentle Darkness would be his ka.) Perhaps Judai made it further due to him wielding the Power Of Gentle Darkness? Just like how the Light of Destruction can make Duel Monster Spirits malicious, the Power Of Gentle Darkness could transform him into a "higher" form? (Mere spirit -> actual human soul?)

Originally Posted by Ryusaki

The anime canon is 99% Shin Yoshida's trolling.

Does that mean he outperforms Hideaki Anno?

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

But they may look human, but...they aren't. They're residing in a spiritual realm of duel monsters....



How..can there be more than one Dark Magician Girl? That's a unique ka the represents Mana. Mana's ka, is what created her. She came from her. Dark Magician Girl *is* her. So how can there be more than one of a unique, signature ka? More than one Mana?

At the end of Doma, Dark Magician Girl even says that Atem and her will meet again, before going silent. Which was clearly a reference to the Memory World. She also addresses Atem as Master. Which is how Mana addressed Atem as well.

It wasn't a reference to the afterlife? Mana calls Atem "Prince" during the Memory World and she is already since 3000 years ago when Yugi meet her in Doma.

You guys are amazing. I couldn't join this debate for all the power in the world.

You guys are gods.

*assembles altar*

Originally Posted by Arynis

Hey hey, I was comparing roles only! *gently pats Rei*

On which note, have no fear, Mako. You can have Trueman...Truemen in a fishtank instead.

And yes, you are welcome.

Also, to continue onwards in my valiant string of contributing absolutely nothing of merit, this. Again. y so old and unfinished sob

Originally Posted by Arynis

Oh, lawl. Well, if you want to. Just make sure it doesn't make you its meal. Or you'll have to pray. Oh wait, this isn't a video game, so no player to save you and defeat Giygas.

GX already ate me. I'm lost. I got pulled into its madness a long time ago. I used to be completely uninterested and just an old school YGO fan with no real interest in the extent works but something intrigued me about the monsters from Tactical Evolution, so I started watching it, got interested and attached to the characters, and went backwards to catch up, and just. Yeah. Look where I am now.

Fair enough. But no story will be perfect like that. Even now and then, something inexplicable might pop up. Maybe the author didn't do their research. Perhaps the story is handled by multiple writers and one of them was a Writer On Board. Or they were lazy, or didn't care. Or it could have been entirely accidental they didn't catch on until much later.

Or things just stay vague and we start thinking about it, realizing something is missing. The author may have not deemed it a necessary detail, in which case we need us a Bellisario's Maxim.

I'm well aware that not everything can be perfect, nor do I expect it to be. That's just unrealistic, and in the end, there's no such thing as perfection. However, there's an acceptable number of errors or mistakes. When the story gets so bad that it begins to look like a slice of swiss cheese, then there's a problem. And a story should strive to be as perfect as possible. Effort should be made to be consistent. If fans can easily keep up with continuity and notice the mistakes and errors of the plot, how come the very writers can't? How is it we know their story and universe better than they do? That's just absurd.

An author shouldn't have to handwave something away. That's just extremely silly. Such mistakes should be kept as minimum as possible, if not outright avoided.

True that. He killed Keith, though. Then again, Keith was a jerkass who cheated and beat up Yugi.

Not to mention Keith was trying to take his money and threatening to kill him. It was reasonable self defense, in the end.

Although who knows what other acts he may have done. He had to learn of the Millennium Eye's abilities somehow, didn't he?

I don't think there's any reason to believe he ever hurt anyone or experimented on them. At the very least, he used his Mind Scan abilities on others. At worst he made other people who threatened him or did something wrong pay a Penalty Game. I seriously doubt Pegasus was a sadistic monster.

Or to tie in with the 10th Anniversary Movie, he had to atone for creating a game that's not quite a game which eventually caused much anguish for the world.

Can't really blame Pegasus for all that though. That's like blaming Henry Ford for all the drunk driving accidents and deaths that occurred throughout history thanks to him inventing the modern day assembly line car. Pegasus created the game, and brought it to life, but he in no way shape or form caused the people who purposefully misused them, with dark powers, to hurt people. That's an unfair attribution of responsibility. He didn't make people choose to use such a gift from a game in such malevolent ways. That's why Paradox is nutters. Nutters due to an understandable cause but still nutters and wrong.


[quote]Or maybe he just found himself with a confused Cyndia who proceeded to unleash her fury on him. That should require enough atoning for his sins. Then all was well, of course.

That would be sad.

Hey hey, I was comparing roles only! *gently pats Rei*

On which note, have no fear, Mako. You can have Trueman...Truemen in a fishtank instead.

And yes, you are welcome.

...I choked, bad on my drink here. I...I'll never unsee that. My God. This is where my head really would explode if it could.

Yep, pretty much. Darkness' plan is essentially the Human Instrumentality Project, with Trueman being the Reis who collect everyone's souls.

Well, yeah. Except Johan didn't kill any kittens.

Yeah. That...just really amuses and surprises me. It gives some sort of thematic, outside story context as to why they did what they did now.

And no. He doesn't. If anything, he protects kittens! If we go by one of his cards at least.

Yeah... We know he's the Supreme King who wields the Power of Gentle Darkness. Maybe he was the King of his dimension? (Well, Prince first. Then King.)

What dimension? And King? He's not a King. The Supreme King was just some half-baked title he gave himself when he went mad and evil. There was no Supreme King, aside from the one he made himself by basically taking over the Dark World Dimension.

Maybe he gained enough personality and sentience through his existence as a Duel Spirit that it made him human? Maybe he's his own ka? XD (Or alternately, his normal human self would be the ba, and his dark, Supreme King side with the Power Of Gentle Darkness would be his ka.) Perhaps Judai made it further due to him wielding the Power Of Gentle Darkness? Just like how the Light of Destruction can make Duel Monster Spirits malicious, the Power Of Gentle Darkness could transform him into a "higher" form? (Mere spirit -> actual human soul?)

I don't even want to know the mechanics of how a monster spirit turns to a human and makes their way to the real world. And why would a Duel Monster spirit be a lesser form than a human's? I see no reason to state that. If that were possible, wouldn't other Duel Monster spirits just become real, or something? There are plenty of other duel monster spirits who would conceivably have that power too. Hell, there's Yubel for one.

@ Xray: <3

@ BrokenLevel: I thought you would like it, at least. XD And that fanart never stops being awesome.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

GX already ate me. I'm lost. I got pulled into its madness a long time ago. I used to be completely uninterested and just an old school YGO fan with no real interest in the extent works but something intrigued me about the monsters from Tactical Evolution, so I started watching it, got interested and attached to the characters, and went backwards to catch up, and just. Yeah. Look where I am now.

Awww. But that doesn't mean you can't appreciate other parts of GX.

Just like how Giygas might be the embodiment of evil, he was an alien reluctant to attack the planet because he was raised by humans. He was essentially Mind Raped by his mother's love. It may have been too much for him. And then Ninten's and everyone's singing drove him completely insane. He has some redeeming... qualities.

I'm well aware that not everything can be perfect, nor do I expect it to be. That's just unrealistic, and in the end, there's no such thing as perfection. However, there's an acceptable number of errors or mistakes. When the story gets so bad that it begins to look like a slice of swiss cheese, then there's a problem. And a story should strive to be as perfect as possible. Effort should be made to be consistent. If fans can easily keep up with continuity and notice the mistakes and errors of the plot, how come the very writers can't? How is it we know their story and universe better than they do? That's just absurd.

An author shouldn't have to handwave something away. That's just extremely silly. Such mistakes should be kept as minimum as possible, if not outright avoided.

You know how the saying goes - the fans know the source material better than its creators. That applies to games and works alike.

They should be avoided, yes. But sometimes it's not possible. Perhaps there was a bad writer on the team who mucked up a thing or two. (Not referring to GX specifically, just in theory.) Those mistakes have to be done away, somehow. Perhaps they could come up with a good explanation afterwards, but sometimes there's no choice but just brush it away.

Or again, Executive Meddling. Perhaps the writers are forced to take an idiotic path and have no choice. For all we know, these decisions could have ranged from the best choice for the situation, or the stupidest one. We will never truly know. We could go around saying how brilliant or stupid a certain plot decision was, but that's from our, the audience's view. We don't know why the writers went that way, or if they had any choice on the matter.

Not to mention Keith was trying to take his money and threatening to kill him. It was reasonable self defense, in the end.

Yeah, true. I still liked the anime's version on the threatening. Gun > knife. Although Pegasus handled it in both versions in an equal calm manner. It was his Crowning Moment Of Awesome. (Okay, the trap may have been Narmy and a bit situational even, or something out of a cartoon. But he didn't panic or anything. **** yeah Pegasus!)

I don't think there's any reason to believe he ever hurt anyone or experimented on them. At the very least, he used his Mind Scan abilities on others. At worst he made other people who threatened him or did something wrong pay a Penalty Game. I seriously doubt Pegasus was a sadistic monster.

How about the Eye's "seal other people in cards" ability? Although he could have just sealed some lonely person's soul, then get away from the scene and release their soul, making things go back to normal.

But yeah, he probably wasn't. After all, he wanted to save that graverobber who stole the Ring. That was one of my favorite scenes from the manga. It showed so much about his character pre-Duelist Kingdom.

If anything, if he pulled any sadist moves (like sealing someone's soul), he could have totally freaked out. So it's not enough he's brainwashed to the artifact's bidding, but he does bastardly things he didn't really want to. XD Not intentionally, anyway.

Can't really blame Pegasus for all that though. That's like blaming Henry Ford for all the drunk driving accidents and deaths that occurred throughout history thanks to him inventing the modern day assembly line car. Pegasus created the game, and brought it to life, but he in no way shape or form caused the people who purposefully misused them, with dark powers, to hurt people. That's an unfair attribution of responsibility. He didn't make people choose to use such a gift from a game in such malevolent ways. That's why Paradox is nutters. Nutters due to an understandable cause but still nutters and wrong.

Try telling Paradox that, then. But yeah, I see your point.

That would be sad.

Well, to quote Steven Moffat:

Originally Posted by Steven Moffat

A lot of life is working out how to apologise sufficiently to the one you love.

Spoiler: Series 5 / Fnarg spoilers for Doctor Who

If you've just shot her dead I think standing guard on a box

for around two thousand years is about right. There are some things that mowing the lawn doesn't cover.

The spoilered parts don't apply here, of course. We don't know if people in the afterlife would be aware of what is going on in the real world. She could be all in the dark about it. To be entirely honest, though? I can't see Cyndia to snap at Pegasus, ever. Tranquil Fury perhaps, but she doesn't strike me as anyone who'd snap furiously. Unless Pegasus did something very, very stupid.

For all we know, it could be just Takahashi being a sadist towards Pegasus. He put him through all kinds of crap (granted, for the plot's sake) and then make him atone for so little things (like you mentioned), even though he did give him his ultimate reward in the end. A cruel yet gentle god, alright. (And with Pegasus being a possible stand-in or not for Takahashi himself, depending on what you believe in, this can get really funny.)

...I choked, bad on my drink here. I...I'll never unsee that. My God. This is where my head really would explode if it could.

This is what happens when you give me ideas. You should know that already. XD (But please don't stop being awesome.)

Yeah. That...just really amuses and surprises me. It gives some sort of thematic, outside story context as to why they did what they did now.

In a good or a bad way, though? XD I've seen varying opinions, but it was nice to see the concept pop up in GX. Plus, that was one of the many reasons I wanted to watch Evangelion. (So I'd finally understand what the funk people meant by "Instrumentality".)

And no. He doesn't. If anything, he protects kittens! If we go by one of his cards at least.

Then Kaworu and Johan'd better not encounter each other, ever. Especially not the evil manga variety of Kaworu. Then again, the Ho Yay that would ensue from that encounter...

What dimension? And King? He's not a King. The Supreme King was just some half-baked title he gave himself when he went mad and evil. There was no Supreme King, aside from the one he made himself by basically taking over the Dark World Dimension.

Well, he was still a Prince. It would follow he'd still become a King one way or another. I was referring to the place where he lived in his past life. With the King [of the Duel Spirits] and Yubel's past self.

If anything, maybe he was the successor to the King [of the Duel Spirits].

I don't even want to know the mechanics of how a monster spirit turns to a human and makes their way to the real world. And why would a Duel Monster spirit be a lesser form than a human's? I see no reason to state that. If that were possible, wouldn't other Duel Monster spirits just become real, or something? There are plenty of other duel monster spirits who would conceivably have that power too. Hell, there's Yubel for one.

I didn't mean lesser in a literal manner or anything... it's just how the monsters dwell in humans and don't really come out on their own unless the ka and ba are fused (eg. Kisara, but doing so makes her lose consciousness) or unless the monsters are summoned from elsewhere (eg. a tablet). Although Yubel was quite intense in that regard, shocking people in Judai's vicinity even though she wasn't really summoned. Like, they are dependant on their human hosts, unless sealed in a tablet, after which they can be used. If the human dies, so does the monster... I think. Didn't Isis' monster fly in the sky after she died, though?

Originally Posted by Arynis

[FONT="Tahoma"]
Awww. But that doesn't mean you can't appreciate other parts of GX.

Just like how Giygas might be the embodiment of evil, he was an alien reluctant to attack the planet because he was raised by humans. He was essentially Mind Raped by his mother's love. It may have been too much for him. And then Ninten's and everyone's singing drove him completely insane. He has some redeeming... qualities.

I do. It's the reason why I'm so interested in it, and discuss it. I like it, despite its flaws. XD

...I wouldn't think of Giygas as having any redeeming qualities. Maybe you should bring up someone better. Like...Apple Kid. Sure, Apple Kid is smelly, dirty, has no sense of manners, is broke, and just very displeasing to the senses. But deep down is a nice guy who's a damn good inventor. XD

See, at least GX isn't Orange Kid. Now if it was, I'd hate its rotten, money stealing, deadbeat guts.

You know how the saying goes - the fans know the source material better than its creators. That applies to games and works alike.

They should be avoided, yes. But sometimes it's not possible. Perhaps there was a bad writer on the team who mucked up a thing or two. (Not referring to GX specifically, just in theory.) Those mistakes have to be done away, somehow. Perhaps they could come up with a good explanation afterwards, but sometimes there's no choice but just brush it away.

LOL that's so not how it should be though.

The bad writer should've taken out back and shot. If thy right eye offends thee. Pluck it out. Lest ye look and fall into sin....or something.

Or again, Executive Meddling. Perhaps the writers are forced to take an idiotic path and have no choice. For all we know, these decisions could have ranged from the best choice for the situation, or the stupidest one. We will never truly know. We could go around saying how brilliant or stupid a certain plot decision was, but that's from our, the audience's view. We don't know why the writers went that way, or if they had any choice on the matter.

YGO seems to have lots of that though, as of late. And its unfortunate. I understand its inevitable at times but that doesn't make it magically okay. XD

Yeah, true. I still liked the anime's version on the threatening. Gun > knife. Although Pegasus handled it in both versions in an equal calm manner. It was his Crowning Moment Of Awesome. (Okay, the trap may have been Narmy and a bit situational even, or something out of a cartoon. But he didn't panic or anything. **** yeah Pegasus!)

Hey, Pegasus would hate to be penetrated by anything except...Okay that's wrong even for me.

I prefer the manga depiction solely because we get to see a badass, dark Pegasus dish out a Penalty Game. And its one of the most hilarious ones in the series. Keith's hand...turned into a gun in his head, and he "shot" himself. Which killed him. Because he was truly made to believe a bullet went into his brain. Do you know how awesome that is?

Sorry but that trap was stupid. That was way too...silly. This isn't Funny Rabbit Loony Toons.

How about the Eye's "seal other people in cards" ability? Although he could have just sealed some lonely person's soul, then get away from the scene and release their soul, making things go back to normal.

There's that, or he could've just "known" through the Eye's power. Hell, when Atem first woke up, he didn't need to test to see what the power of the Millennium Puzzle was. He knew it off the bat. He knew he could create Games of Darkness and give Penalty Games. It was just..instinctual. And he HAD no memory.

But yeah, he probably wasn't. After all, he wanted to save that graverobber who stole the Ring. That was one of my favorite scenes from the manga. It showed so much about his character pre-Duelist Kingdom.

Yup. He was deep down, a good person.

If anything, if he pulled any sadist moves (like sealing someone's soul), he could have totally freaked out. So it's not enough he's brainwashed to the artifact's bidding, but he does bastardly things he didn't really want to. XD Not intentionally, anyway.

He was bad, but he could've been a lot worst. If he really wanted to make them all suffer, he'd have ripped up the cards with their souls inside, and just.. yeah. He had a sense of honor.

Try telling Paradox that, then. But yeah, I see your point.

I so wouldn't. I don't wanna die.

Well, to quote Steven Moffat:

The spoilered parts don't apply here, of course. We don't know if people in the afterlife would be aware of what is going on in the real world. She could be all in the dark about it. To be entirely honest, though? I can't see Cyndia to snap at Pegasus, ever. Tranquil Fury perhaps, but she doesn't strike me as anyone who'd snap furiously. Unless Pegasus did something very, very stupid.

I think Pegasus paid already though, by the sheer act of losing, and then being brutally murdered by Mr. Albino Bakura. I mean, that was pretty damn ironic. What more does he need to endure and pay for? He suffered the ultimate defeat, and then got killed.

For all we know, it could be just Takahashi being a sadist towards Pegasus. He put him through all kinds of crap (granted, for the plot's sake) and then make him atone for so little things (like you mentioned), even though he did give him his ultimate reward in the end. A cruel yet gentle god, alright. (And with Pegasus being a possible stand-in or not for Takahashi himself, depending on what you believe in, this can get really funny.)

I think maybe he was speaking in terms of the present, as in referrnig to his death as the atonement. Because I don't really quite get what else he needs to do.

This is what happens when you give me ideas. You should know that already. XD (But please don't stop being awesome.)

LOL, I WASN'T EVEN TRYING THIS TIME!



In a good or a bad way, though? XD I've seen varying opinions, but it was nice to see the concept pop up in GX. Plus, that was one of the many reasons I wanted to watch Evangelion. (So I'd finally understand what the funk people meant by "Instrumentality".)

Then Kaworu and Johan'd better not encounter each other, ever. Especially not the evil manga variety of Kaworu. Then again, the Ho Yay that would ensue from that encounter...

Manga Kaworu is freaky. And I doubt any love would be between those two. Kaworu likes the broken, feminine boy types. Johan's only half that. And he likes kittens.

[FONT="Tahoma"]Well, he was still a Prince. It would follow he'd still become a King one way or another. I was referring to the place where he lived in his past life. With the King [of the Duel Spirits] and Yubel's past self.

Yeah, but I don't think those two positions of royalty are connected. Supreme King Judai is the self given title he gave himself by basically going apeshit and conquering that world, by dueling everyone to death with his made up E-Hero fusions. I don't even get how he did it. It's almost a plot hole but not. How in the world did he single handedly, in that short amount of time, conquer the world? I can get him descending into darkness. But he didn't just fall. He freakin' leapt and then swan dived into it. He was truly horrible. And nothing would snap him out of it save for a duel to the death. There was no...glimmer of light that revealed itself until he was completely crushed.

I don't think that was anything close to who he was before in his past life.

I didn't mean lesser in a literal manner or anything... it's just how the monsters dwell in humans and don't really come out on their own unless the ka and ba are fused (eg. Kisara, but doing so makes her lose consciousness) or unless the monsters are summoned from elsewhere (eg. a tablet). Although Yubel was quite intense in that regard, shocking people in Judai's vicinity even though she wasn't really summoned. Like, they are dependant on their human hosts, unless sealed in a tablet, after which they can be used. If the human dies, so does the monster... I think. Didn't Isis' monster fly in the sky after she died, though?

Kisara was a special case. Her Ka...was her ba. They were not meant to be the same. She was an anomaly, unfortunately. They are usually separate.

Yubel was truly overprotective. I loved that about her. XD

Since we're going back to the original roots of the spirits, yes. They are dependent on humans on some level, but in terms of GX's depiction they don't seem that dependent at all...

I dunno. It's just so damn murky and wonky with Judai.

And yes. If the user's ba vanishes, the ka does too. They are tied together.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

How..can there be more than one Dark Magician Girl? That's a unique ka the represents Mana. Mana's ka, is what created her. She came from her. Dark Magician Girl *is* her. So how can there be more than one of a unique, signature ka? More than one Mana?

At the end of Doma, Dark Magician Girl even says that Atem and her will meet again, before going silent. Which was clearly a reference to the Memory World. She also addresses Atem as Master. Which is how Mana addressed Atem as well.

Haven't watched Memory World in years and only ever watched it once. Point conceded.

Yeah, but good writing shouldn't and doesn't rely on that. Things are either explained, implied, or justified in some form or fashion. When things have to be handwaved or literally retconned to fit, then that obviously shows some form of weakness in the storytelling.

Or they had to continue. An extremely bad abuser of this trope is Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, which like Yu-Gi-Oh!, but many times more, has effectively been a staple of Shueisha's publishing portfolio since the 80s. However, each of its arcs heavily retcons in new villains, the origins and things, and how things works. Thing is, despite this, Jojo is basically an Ur Memetic series in Japan, and it tends to be head nodded to lots, and just generally respected.

Why, if the writing is so bad that it retcons all the time? It's probably because a lot of people realize a lot of these series have to likely deal with renewal deals, and they're very self contained, especially Jojo. It's a basic fact of life. GX probably had to deal with the same "We'll check on you every 13~26 weeks, see how you're doing, and Bob's your uncle". It's not so much bad writing as again, Bellasario's Maxim. A lot of what you're complaining about is pretty standard fair for weekly series. It's not about good or bad writing, rather industry. =X

But I digress. If we somehow saw that there were multiple Darkness's in a fish tank somewhere, smiling and waving at us, I'd probably just turn off the tv, and burn it.

No, I'd watch in fascination. Speak for yourself, Mako. XD

Oh. And Dark Sage. Dark Sage is basically an aged Dark Magician. So...why is there a Dark Sage when Dark Magician should also be in the afterlife too?

Because Gandalf expies are bro tier. The old magic man is always awesome, and I can't think of many other old Spellcaster-Type monsters with beard tier.

Exodia is a God. Who was sealed beneath Egypt. So yeah...why would he be...in a Duel Monster Spirit Realm too?

Because he's a God. Gods need not apply to your silly ridiculous and pretentious views of causality, time-space, or reason.

------------
On the note of the Duel Monsters World in the card game...

- The Six Samurai are basically from Feudal Japan.
- Jerome McHale pretty much confirmed there being 3 worlds as is (Human World); (Realm of Light/Justice World); (Dark World/Ankokukai).
- Duel Terminal seems to be its own planet separate from everyone else.
- We have the Different Dimension.
- Ugh, I could go on, maybe I will later and get down what I can.

But they may look human, but...they aren't. They're residing in a spiritual realm of duel monsters....

They're humans more or less. Don't over think it, Mako. Your brain will explode too hard if you over think the Dark World arc. Just fanit over Juudai's pretty armor and Amon's raging biceps, you'll feel better.

How..can there be more than one Dark Magician Girl? That's a unique ka the represents Mana. Mana's ka, is what created her. She came from her. Dark Magician Girl *is* her. So how can there be more than one of a unique, signature ka? More than one Mana?

Multiple World Theory. You really don't like Quantum Physics and the concepts of multiples of the same thing, do you? That was pretty much Doma's excuse: "lol, parallel universes DEEEESSSSSU~~~"

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...el/Art/eva.png

Best. Ever. May you keep being awesome, Truemun.

Effort should be made to be consistent. If fans can easily keep up with continuity and notice the mistakes and errors of the plot, how come the very writers can't? How is it we know their story and universe better than they do? That's just absurd.

Again, it might be that GX was written in a more... Japanese style of things. The story and the plot didn't matter. It was the themes, the ideas, the dance that mattered. The story wasn't the point. The ideal of a boy's journey from Adolesence into Adulthood, and being forced to confront it and romance and pain, when he wasn't ready to.

Alternatively, GX was Konami, Nihon Ad Systems, and Shueisha's whipping boy.

What dimension? And King? He's not a King. The Supreme King was just some half-baked title he gave himself when he went mad and evil. There was no Supreme King, aside from the one he made himself by basically taking over the Dark World Dimension.

I specifically remember Birdman/Harpie's Brother referring to a Haou. Whether it was Juudai or the title of the ruler of Dark World, I foret.

Also, note: Surpeme King (Haou) more specifically in its meaning, could mean "Tyrant". As in one who rules by force rather than elected or divine right. A good example of this would be the Tokugawa shogunite. Basically, its a ruler who forces squabbling tribes to unite under him, and if you won't bow down, you get the axe. Or in Juudai's case, Inferno Wing's claws at your throat.

And in the World of Monsters, especially Dark World, which is ruled by authority of level and strength, a Tyrant would be a perfect example, as Juudai himself (Haou), that Dark World was a world ruled not by the law of man, but rather by the law of the jungle, kill or be killed.

I don't even want to know the mechanics of how a monster spirit turns to a human and makes their way to the real world.

Hilariously, an GX RP I play in on LiveJournal/IRC, deals with this issue a lot. And the 12 Dimensions.

Yay, Q&A!

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

How does Marcel have Sacred Beast support cards?

Either Yubel had them, or they came with the Demons themselves. Remember how Dick Pitt's Deck changed when he was possessed by Rudger? maybe the Demons do the same thing?

What exactly happened to the missing students of Obelisk Blue's old dormitory before they just were handwaved back into existence?

Do you mean inside the void? Beacuse it was already described how they got there.

What ever happened to Misawa? And Hayato for that matter?

Hayato has a job at I2. Misawa is still in the other dimension with Taniya.

What were the origins and purpose of the Shadow Charms (aside from Millennium Item wannabes)? The only one we have any real knowledge or understanding of is Amanael's.

They must have had some sort of power to restrain the Three Demons.

What happened to Echo & Amon?

Amon sacrificed Echo to revive Exodia. Presumably, when Yubel defeated Amon, she "fulfilled" his goal of being with erh again. Which means actually killing him.

What exactly was the nature of the Duel Monster spirit dimensions and why were there 12?

Because there are 12 MOnster levels, they decided it would work.

What was the Eye of Orichalchum and where did it come from?

...An Atlanean artifact? I Dunno.

What type of prince was Judai, and where in space was it? What planet was he on? Was it even in our universe or the Duel Monster spirit? And if that's the case..then is he a reincarnated Duel Monster?

Basically, yes; which explains why Judai can see spirits, fuse with Yubel, protect his cards from being eaten by the Three Demons, and all that other crap we see him do which no other human can.

What the **** was Trueman? Aside from a man made of cards of Darkness? Why did that whole Darkness incident choose to happen right then? And why was Seto Kaiba the only person in Domino City to be spared being ferried to the World of Darkness?

That's all Trueman was; he was a physical manifestation of human darkness. The suit is to represent the whole "Men in Black" conspiracy theory. And Kaiba... come on, this is a guy who jams revolvers with children's trading cards. He's too awesome for Trueman to take.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

No, I'm talking about how before they went to the Duel Monster Spirit World, Marcel shared with Rei how his favorite card was "Phantasmal Martyrs." The card Kagemaru used aganist Judai. How did he get that card? That works as an explanation for his other ones I suppose, but he had Sacred Beast cards before he even got possessed.

Funny. Episode 179 says it's Death by Dimensional Fusion. Huh. Maybe he stole Kagemaru's Deck, or found it lying around somewhere? Or maybe the writers stole it for him?

Principal Samejima said that they were all found again and released by Kagemaru after they were experimented on or whatever. I want to know what type of weird experiments they endured.

Ah, I see. Well, for all we know, no... we don't want to know. Considering how twisted Season 4's stuff got, let's not take it further.

I'm glad 5Ds at least started strong. The Dark Signer arc had some holes but even then, it kept itself together and stayed on track. The ending kinda sucked though. Godwin's ruination was probably what pissed me off the mouth.

We need to double-check Godwin's birth records. I thin k his father might be Kagemaru.

But Doma is such a contradiction. Great presentation. But a weak story. What the hell is that? How do you do that? XD

That's called Television writing. How the **** do you think Lost or American Idol came to be?

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

LOL Dark World was shit. It was all a mess. And it was just utterly borked. Again. If it wasn't for the characters and funny moments and all it just. It really is mad. And yeah, the pacing was kinda insane. No. Very insane.

Brron could have been a greater character than he was; but he was a throw-away villain. ****, NAS. Dark World allowed Haou to come into being, but that's about it.

ROTFL, Battle on the Big Bridge would've been so fitting for the Battle Royale Duel against Fujiwara. HA. Yeah it was just...so damn rushed. It was a zerg rush of DARKNESSU BOSSES.

Take off all our DAKUNESEZU!

Just random crap that ruins things. Like that Placido transformation. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THAT? Did they REALLY think that made him more threatening or cooler looking? What the freak? And I love how NO ONE in the show talks about that, or brings it up. Yusei never talks about how he saw that freaky transformation, or how Placido isn't human. It's just...forgotten.

I liked the transformation, except for the bellow and pose at the end. I actually felt pain in my knees watching his legs deform like that. And keep in mind, Jose had a Duel Disc tray in his stomach. Just as ugly.

Either Yubel had them, or they came with the Demons themselves. Remember how Dick Pitt's Deck changed when he was possessed by Rudger? maybe the Demons do the same thing?

Then how is Martin's favorite card "Phantasmal Martyrs" or "Dimension Fusion Destruction". I. ijjgljksgjklsgdjklsdg.

Originally Posted by Makoeyes987

I do. It's the reason why I'm so interested in it, and discuss it. I like it, despite its flaws. XD

...I wouldn't think of Giygas as having any redeeming qualities. Maybe you should bring up someone better. Like...Apple Kid. Sure, Apple Kid is smelly, dirty, has no sense of manners, is broke, and just very displeasing to the senses. But deep down is a nice guy who's a damn good inventor. XD

See, at least GX isn't Orange Kid. Now if it was, I'd hate its rotten, money stealing, deadbeat guts.

Yay!

I guess I worded it wrong -- Giygas could be someone you could feel sorry for, because of his circumstances and all. But yeah, Apple Kid is a good example.

FFFF, Orange Kid. He was so useless.

LOL that's so not how it should be though.

The bad writer should've taken out back and shot. If thy right eye offends thee. Pluck it out. Lest ye look and fall into sin....or something.

Perhaps, but that's how things usually go. As I said, fans mean more viewpoints. The writer(s) would have only a limited amount of ideas. The fans obviously outnumber the writers, which means the fans could easily come up with ideas the writer didn't even think of. Now take the fans' love for overanalysing things, and... there you have it.

Perhaps the staff can't afford to lose the bad writer or switch with another one? Kind of like how LeArk put it, they had to continue?

Hey, Pegasus would hate to be penetrated by anything except...Okay that's wrong even for me.

A squid? Oh, wait...

I prefer the manga depiction solely because we get to see a badass, dark Pegasus dish out a Penalty Game. And its one of the most hilarious ones in the series. Keith's hand...turned into a gun in his head, and he "shot" himself. Which killed him. Because he was truly made to believe a bullet went into his brain. Do you know how awesome that is?

Sorry but that trap was stupid. That was way too...silly. This isn't Funny Rabbit Loony Toons.

Yes, there's no denying that. It was creepy in regards to Pegasus, too. The laid back, goofy gentleman suddenly becomes a dangerous, dark man. He sure loves his Mood Whiplash.

As for the trap, it could be forgiven because Pegasus is a huge fan of cartoons. Hell, he knew exactly how many bullets (26000) were fired by Bulldog Police at Funny Rabbit during the run of 583 episodes. With such dedication, it wouldn't be surprising.

There's that, or he could've just "known" through the Eye's power. Hell, when Atem first woke up, he didn't need to test to see what the power of the Millennium Puzzle was. He knew it off the bat. He knew he could create Games of Darkness and give Penalty Games. It was just..instinctual. And he HAD no memory.

Hmm, yeah. Although it must have been quite horrifying for Pegasus. At first, all he knew is the pain of losing someone dear to him, then he got to see her for a brief moment, his hope went up... then he lost her again. And the next moment, his mind is clouded with the dark knowledge the Eye bestowed upon him. Not to mention the Eye would proceed to worm itself into Pegasus' darkness and brainwash him. Ouch.

Yup. He was deep down, a good person.

Indeed. Which is what makes his Duelist Kingdom self even more terrifying. It must take a lot of hardships and dark magic to turn a friendly, good hearted man into something like that.

He was bad, but he could've been a lot worst. If he really wanted to make them all suffer, he'd have ripped up the cards with their souls inside, and just.. yeah. He had a sense of honor.

Well, he is a gentleman. And a man of his word, too. His promises are really precious to him and fulfills them without hesitation.

I think Pegasus paid already though, by the sheer act of losing, and then being brutally murdered by Mr. Albino Bakura. I mean, that was pretty damn ironic. What more does he need to endure and pay for? He suffered the ultimate defeat, and then got killed.

Pegasus is a pile of irony. And then Bakura even mocked him with the Millennium Eye replica. But that soup joke of his was just asking to bite him in the... eh, eye socket. I like how out of the blue that was in the manga. The only clue you get is Bakura asking for the Eye replica from Yugi. The beginning of Duel 133 makes it look like Pegasus was forgiven and all. Everyone was let free. And then... "Hey, where's Bakura?" Switch to the scene with Pegasus' gruesome appearance with his bleeding eye socket, Bakura giving him the replica then walking away.

I think maybe he was speaking in terms of the present, as in referrnig to his death as the atonement. Because I don't really quite get what else he needs to do.

Redemption Equals Death? Also, the exact quote on the atoning part is:

Originally Posted by Tatsunoboshi Horoko

After the final battle, he has his Millennium Eye gouged out by Bakura and turns up in a gruesome light. In the original story, according to Esper Roba's dialogue, he is dead, and in the extra story (lit. "another story") after that, Yu-Gi-Oh R, it also explicitly portrayals him as being dead, and even the original author states that he "was assassinated by Bakura and died." In the original author's interviews and afterwords, his death was handled as an extremely important thing and died having his duty done; atoning for his sins he lives with Cyndia together in Heaven; and other words to those effects are often seen.

It's kind of... ambiguous. Unless it's just me failing to interpret the sentence properly due to not being a native speaker...

LOL, I WASN'T EVEN TRYING THIS TIME!

Spontaneous ideas are the best! You don't have to try to be awesome. ;D

Manga Kaworu is freaky. And I doubt any love would be between those two. Kaworu likes the broken, feminine boy types. Johan's only half that. And he likes kittens.

Such as--- no, I'm not going there. So not going there.

Yeah, but I don't think those two positions of royalty are connected. Supreme King Judai is the self given title he gave himself by basically going apeshit and conquering that world, by dueling everyone to death with his made up E-Hero fusions. I don't even get how he did it. It's almost a plot hole but not. How in the world did he single handedly, in that short amount of time, conquer the world? I can get him descending into darkness. But he didn't just fall. He freakin' leapt and then swan dived into it. He was truly horrible. And nothing would snap him out of it save for a duel to the death. There was no...glimmer of light that revealed itself until he was completely crushed.

I don't think that was anything close to who he was before in his past life.

Superpowered Evil Side? After all, the Power of Gentle Darkness was said to be one of the most powerful forces in the world, and setting such a dormant power free, especially under such circumstances, would certainly unleash ZA BEASTO within.

Kisara was a special case. Her Ka...was her ba. They were not meant to be the same. She was an anomaly, unfortunately. They are usually separate.

That's why I find Kisara interesting. Her circumstances are so much different from anyone else. I like to think that her human self was more of a mere vessel, a human representation of the White Dragon itself. That's why she looked so different from the Egyptians there.

Yubel was truly overprotective. I loved that about her. XD

She really did love Judai, didn't she? Then Judai sent her into space to get strong, but she only encountered the Light of Destruction, corrupting her. Then Judai had to be brainwashed because he had nightmares of Yubel's pain... forgetting about Yubel completely. Poor Yubel...

Since we're going back to the original roots of the spirits, yes. They are dependent on humans on some level, but in terms of GX's depiction they don't seem that dependent at all...

I suppose some level of dependency was still there, like Judai fused with Yubel. If Judai would die, so would Yubel... although Yubel can be still taken out of Judai ala the Darkness duel. (Unless that just represented getting Yubel summoned to the field, rather than actual de-fusion.)

And yes. If the user's ba vanishes, the ka does too. They are tied together.

I see. Thanks!

Also Mako, check your visitor messages.

Originally Posted by LeArk

No, I'd watch in fascination. Speak for yourself, Mako. XD

LOL XD

I could also draw an alternate version with actual zombiegoats if I weren't so bad at drawing them damn zombiegoats zombie goasts!

They're humans more or less. Don't over think it, Mako. Your brain will explode too hard if you over think the Dark World arc. Just fanit over Juudai's pretty armor and Amon's raging biceps, you'll feel better.

Ahahahaha. Or Pegasus' FABULOUSness. That always helps. Bonus points when he's animated by Hidetsugu Hirayama.

Multiple World Theory. You really don't like Quantum Physics and the concepts of multiples of the same thing, do you? That was pretty much Doma's excuse: "lol, parallel universes DEEEESSSSSU~~~"

Quantum Physics is awesome. I thought that the Duel Monsters playing Duel Monsters and summoning themselves could be a representation of the string theory too.

Also, note: Surpeme King (Haou) more specifically in its meaning, could mean "Tyrant". As in one who rules by force rather than elected or divine right. A good example of this would be the Tokugawa shogunite. Basically, its a ruler who forces squabbling tribes to unite under him, and if you won't bow down, you get the axe. Or in Juudai's case, Inferno Wing's claws at your throat.

And in the World of Monsters, especially Dark World, which is ruled by authority of level and strength, a Tyrant would be a perfect example, as Juudai himself (Haou), that Dark World was a world ruled not by the law of man, but rather by the law of the jungle, kill or be killed.

That's an interesting way to put it. I like it!

Originally Posted by LeArk

Then how is Martin's favorite card "Phantasmal Martyrs" or "Dimension Fusion Destruction". I. ijjgljksgjklsgdjklsdg.

Perhaps someone was reading the scripts in advance?

Originally Posted by LeArk

Then how is Martin's favorite card "Phantasmal Martyrs" or "Dimension Fusion Destruction". I. ijjgljksgjklsgdjklsdg.

Martin can remember being possessed by Yubel (which means he must have been conscious for the whole thing). During that time, he nearly beat Judai, he trashed Amon, and he defeated countless students to turn them into Duel Zombies... basically, Yubel made him the kind of awesome duelist every character in these shows wants to be. Why would he not have a favourite card from a Deck that made him so good?

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

Martin can remember being possessed by Yubel (which means he must have been conscious for the whole thing). During that time, he nearly beat Judai, he trashed Amon, and he defeated countless students to turn them into Duel Zombies... basically, Yubel made him the kind of awesome duelist every character in these shows wants to be. Why would he not have a favourite card from a Deck that made him so good?

Because It isn't really him you had dueled?

About this, how Martin (or rather Yubel) gets Exodia pieces? Amon wasn't alone to get it, except Yugi in the begnning?

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

Martin can remember being possessed by Yubel (which means he must have been conscious for the whole thing). During that time, he nearly beat Judai, he trashed Amon, and he defeated countless students to turn them into Duel Zombies... basically, Yubel made him the kind of awesome duelist every character in these shows wants to be. Why would he not have a favourite card from a Deck that made him so good?

It's not so much why Martin likes Phantasmal Mayters, etc, it's how. The question being tossed around is how and why support cards for the Phantasmal Demons were apparently available for random sh0ta schmucks like Martin to pick up - and to a lesser extent, why they even existed - when the Demons were super-dangerous, secret, and one of a kind cards buried underneath Duel Academia.

As a random and flimsy toss-out on that front, maybe his padre Napoleon picked them up off-screen somehow from Kagemaru or another DA higher-up, and gave them to Martin for some uncomprehensible reason? 'SON I LOVE YOU HAVE SOME COOL CARDS. NOW DON'T TALK TO ME.' �\(�_o)/�

For as 'oh god they're not even trying anymore why am i watching this show' in terms of ball-dropping as this specific situation is, it's at least slightly more plausible then the 9001 other nonsensical ass-pulls in GX, because at least the creation of the Demon support [and by extension, a lot of the Seven Star's magical cards?] was sort of heavily implied as being all Kagemaru via throwing lots of money and mysticism around. I mean, as half-baked and hard to swallow as it was, THE IMPLICATION WAS GOOD FOR GX STANDARDS.



so much bad storytelling adjsdhhg

Originally Posted by Allana

Because It isn't really him you had dueled?

About this, how Martin (or rather Yubel) gets Exodia pieces? Amon wasn't alone to get it, except Yugi in the begnning?

Exodia is simply rare, not one-of-a-kind. How Yubel got them isn't known, but they could have even been Martin's to begin with. Napoleon could have picked them up for him. And Amon got those same Exodia pieces that Martin used, so all in all, that's only the second set of real Exodia cards the anime has ever shown, since Seeker's were fake.

Originally Posted by Arynis

Yay!

I guess I worded it wrong -- Giygas could be someone you could feel sorry for, because of his circumstances and all. But yeah, Apple Kid is a good example.

FFFF, Orange Kid. He was so useless.

At least GX isn't Orange Kid..which is the true moral of the story.



[quote]Perhaps, but that's how things usually go. As I said, fans mean more viewpoints. The writer(s) would have only a limited amount of ideas. The fans obviously outnumber the writers, which means the fans could easily come up with ideas the writer didn't even think of. Now take the fans' love for overanalysing things, and... there you have it.

Perhaps the staff can't afford to lose the bad writer or switch with another one? Kind of like how LeArk put it, they had to continue?[/quote}

That's sadly true. Who knows what nonsense goes down with NAS.

A squid? Oh, wait...

Not quite.

Yes, there's no denying that. It was creepy in regards to Pegasus, too. The laid back, goofy gentleman suddenly becomes a dangerous, dark man. He sure loves his Mood Whiplash.

As for the trap, it could be forgiven because Pegasus is a huge fan of cartoons. Hell, he knew exactly how many bullets (26000) were fired by Bulldog Police at Funny Rabbit during the run of 583 episodes. With such dedication, it wouldn't be surprising.

Yeah, but when Pegasus wants to throw down. He throws down. He wouldn't use some dinky trap. He'd....well...blow your brains out!

Well, he is a gentleman. And a man of his word, too. His promises are really precious to him and fulfills them without hesitation.

Which you really wouldn't expect from someone who's so villainous on the outside.

Redemption Equals Death? Also, the exact quote on the atoning part is:

It's kind of... ambiguous. Unless it's just me failing to interpret the sentence properly due to not being a native speaker...

Yeah, it sounds like his death and being dead is his...well...redemption.

Spontaneous ideas are the best! You don't have to try to be awesome. ;D

Such as--- no, I'm not going there. So not going there.

LMAO, Im just not safe, am I?

And...do I even want to know?

Superpowered Evil Side? After all, the Power of Gentle Darkness was said to be one of the most powerful forces in the world, and setting such a dormant power free, especially under such circumstances, would certainly unleash ZA BEASTO within.

It's not Gentle Darkness if its being used for harm, roughness and evil, is it? Then it's just....darkness. XD

That's why I find Kisara interesting. Her circumstances are so much different from anyone else. I like to think that her human self was more of a mere vessel, a human representation of the White Dragon itself. That's why she looked so different from the Egyptians there.

That's quite likely. It's why Seto Kaiba has such a bond with the Blue Eyes White Dragon, and vice versa. Kisara has never left Set, even now.

I suppose some level of dependency was still there, like Judai fused with Yubel. If Judai would die, so would Yubel... although Yubel can be still taken out of Judai ala the Darkness duel. (Unless that just represented getting Yubel summoned to the field, rather than actual de-fusion.)

Hmm, good point. That was...odd. How could Yubel be ripped out mid-duel? Well, I suppose that was just another of Darkness's weird powers.... Just threw me, how calling Yubel out of the deck, pulled her out of his body.

Originally Posted by DarkDust_Dragon

Do you mean inside the void? Beacuse it was already described how they got there.

Yes, what was actually done to them.

Hayato has a job at I2. Misawa is still in the other dimension with Taniya.

That...doesn't tell me what happened to them. That's where they went, but that doesn't tell us a thing about what they're doing, since....we're not shown.

They must have had some sort of power to restrain the Three Demons.

That...doesn't really tell us anything. I asked about their origins and specific powers. Only one has been shown to control the Sacred Beasts themselves, really.

Amon sacrificed Echo to revive Exodia. Presumably, when Yubel defeated Amon, she "fulfilled" his goal of being with erh again. Which means actually killing him.

But when Judai defeated Yubel, all the people who died were brought back to life. Even Hell Kaiser. Everyone's shown to have returned back to reality. So why didn't Amon and Echo come back?

Because there are 12 MOnster levels, they decided it would work.

For some reason...that actually makes sense.

...An Atlanean artifact? I Dunno.

No one knows.

Funny. Episode 179 says it's Death by Dimensional Fusion. Huh. Maybe he stole Kagemaru's Deck, or found it lying around somewhere? Or maybe the writers stole it for him?

Got my Sacred Beast support cards mixed up. Thank you. But umm..yeah. I'm sure those writers stole it for him alright. Right out of that hole in the plot. XD

We need to double-check Godwin's birth records. I thin k his father might be Kagemaru.

LMAO. Zing.

I liked the transformation, except for the bellow and pose at the end. I actually felt pain in my knees watching his legs deform like that. And keep in mind, Jose had a Duel Disc tray in his stomach. Just as ugly.

Yes, I agree. I don't get Jose's weird giant eyebrow of doom, either. XDD