Thread: Yuugi Beat Atemu, Skill or Fate?

cheating. why?

http://slifertheskydragon.deviantart...2-RAS-17300280

bad, bad yugi.

lol

Originally Posted by Wrath_Necross

I think Yugi played like a master but it was still fate for the fact that Atem did not fight at full power.

Like someone mentioned before if he truly wanted to win he would have used the power of Obelisk or Ra to crush Yugi that one turn and end it right there.

I think Atem did not think to use those moves because subconsciously he wanted to lose.

In the manga Atemu only had one god out at a time, tops, and only brought out Obelisk and Osiris. The duel played itself out far differently.

Skill hands down. He knew Atem was gonna try to bring back Osiris in that last turn. That very move allowed him to win.

Originally Posted by ~Teh Pharaoh Atemu~

if Yuugi was the betterm why did he let the Pharaoh duel through Duelist kingdom, well, till Pegasus anyway.

Discuss

It is not entirely true what you say, Teh Pharaoh Atemu. Yugi did defeat almost all of his opponents in Duel-Kingdom on his own, while he did not even know that the Pharaoh actually existed. He never got help from Atem(okey, meybe in teh duels against Mai and Pegasus).

While it is true that Yuugi showed unexpected skills, Atemu couldn't let himself win. He has been fighting in body that doesn't belong to him, he has been waiting that end persistently in order to set Yuugi free, live his own life without any danger. It wasn't Yuugi that Bakura, Dartz, Kaiba, Marik fought; it was Atemu all along. Therefore, what would victory in that duel bring to him? More pain, suffer, perhaps more villains. Defeat was the only rational option. Atemu didn't give the best in final duel; but he could've.

It was neither skill or fate; it was choice of the Pharaoh.

I definitely do not see how Atemu wasn't giving it his all.

Originally Posted by Cococo-co_Co-coco

I definitely do not see how Atemu wasn't giving it his all.

I do. Here goes the drama.

Simple. Using the full effects of the gods Obelisk and Ra . For me thats enough for me to think that he did not give his all in that duel.

There's basis to assume either, really. I think it's one of them things that aren't meant to have a definitive answer, but I'll go with both. It was Yugi’s fate to surpass the Pharaoh, which is what allowed him to win that duel. If the story ended any other way, it would pretty much mean that both of them screwed something up. I mean, they’re basically two halves of the same soul. If Atemu’s life wasn’t cut short he probably would have kept on improving, so why not think the same of Yugi who would get to live the life the other was denied? Besides, wasn’t Wdjat keeping an eye out for foul play?

I think both. For one, Yugi has been with Atemu for this long. They've been together, sharing each other's thoughts, it wouldn't suprise me, if Yugi won the duel due to skills. Though, in my opinion, Atemu is just the best ;p I think it is fate, which let him return to the nether-world. So I would say both

I think Atem gave it his all. A big part of the duel for Yugi was that Atem was dueling with him seriously. They were fighting, heart to heart. It wouldn't be right if Atem wasn't giving it his all. Atem didn't want to lose, because he'd be separated from his friends. While it was true that he had to leave, that didn't necessarily mean that he wanted to.

But as far as skill or fate, I say skill, cause Yugi pulled one over on Atem several times, especially with Osiris. And I also don't like the idea of fate being a factor, especially in a character driven story like this, where characters usually break away from fate, not follow it. (Malik's story was kind of like that, me thinks).

Originally Posted by revengematron3

I think Atem gave it his all. A big part of the duel for Yugi was that Atem was dueling with him seriously. They were fighting, heart to heart. It wouldn't be right if Atem wasn't giving it his all. Atem didn't want to lose, because he'd be separated from his friends. While it was true that he had to leave, that didn't necessarily mean that he wanted to.

But would it be right if he won, stayed in Yugi's body, lived Yugi's life? I don't think so, even thoug Yugi would allow. His presence would possibly endanger Yugi.
And of course he didn't want to leave, but he sacrificed that friendship for Yugi's freedom. But even if had a chance to win, he wouldn't do it. He sacrificed his life back in the past, and therefore, he'd gladly, without any regret, sacrificed it again for a normal life of his friend.

Originally Posted by DARKMASTER

Simple. Using the full effects of the gods Obelisk and Ra . For me thats enough for me to think that he did not give his all in that duel.

In the manga though, Atemu only summoned Osiris and Obelisk, and one at a time. If he were to have used their effects then and there, there would have been a majar discrepancy.

Originally Posted by Inquisitor

But would it be right if he won, stayed in Yugi's body, lived Yugi's life? I don't think so, even thoug Yugi would allow. His presence would possibly endanger Yugi.
And of course he didn't want to leave, but he sacrificed that friendship for Yugi's freedom. But even if had a chance to win, he wouldn't do it. He sacrificed his life back in the past, and therefore, he'd gladly, without any regret, sacrificed it again for a normal life of his friend.

Who said that he would live Yugi's life? He merely wanted to stay and live with everyone just as he always has. It's true that this duel was supposed to decide whether Atem would stay or pass on, but this was their duel. The only one they'd ever have. It was their time to show each other their feelings. For Atem, he was expressing his wanting to stay with everyone. For Yugi, especially when he negated Raise Dead's effect, he wanted to show that the dead should not linger with the living. Yugi, and The Eye of Wajdet(I can't spell the thing's name) would have known if he was taking it easy. As true duelists, Atem and Yugi had to fight to their fullest. This was also Yugi's time to show Atem that he surpassed him. With Atem not trying his best, The Eye of Wajdet couldn't pass proper judgment on whether or not if Yugi surpassed him, or if it was due to Atem.

As for using Ra or Obelisk, as Cococo-co_Co-coco has mentioned, Atem only used Obelisk and Osiris in the manga. I'm going to check the manga again to see how it played out though. You could argue that he should've used Ra, but Yugi stated that having all three God cards would be extremely limiting on one's deck due to their cost. It could also be that he just didn't have it in his hand. Who knows?

Originally Posted by revengematron3

Who said that he would live Yugi's life? He merely wanted to stay and live with everyone just as he always has. It's true that this duel was supposed to decide whether Atem would stay or pass on, but this was their duel. The only one they'd ever have. It was their time to show each other their feelings. For Atem, he was expressing his wanting to stay with everyone. For Yugi, especially when he negated Raise Dead's effect, he wanted to show that the dead should not linger with the living. Yugi, and The Eye of Wajdet(I can't spell the thing's name) would have known if he was taking it easy. As true duelists, Atem and Yugi had to fight to their fullest. This was also Yugi's time to show Atem that he surpassed him. With Atem not trying his best, The Eye of Wajdet couldn't pass proper judgment on whether or not if Yugi surpassed him, or if it was due to Atem.

But does he have any other alternative? He shares his body with Yugi, he always has. Therefore, using Yugi's body implies living his life. He does not have a permanent body, his life would interfere with Yugi's. Even if he gave his best, even if his opponent were better indeed, his conscience wouldn't allow him to stay, and consequently ruin Yugi's indenpendent future as a duelist.

Originally Posted by Inquisitor

But does he have any other alternative? He shares his body with Yugi, he always has. Therefore, using Yugi's body implies living his life. He does not have a permanent body, his life would interfere with Yugi's. Even if he gave his best, even if his opponent were better indeed, his conscience wouldn't allow him to stay, and consequently ruin Yugi's indenpendent future as a duelist.

The hidden meaning of the duel was to see whether Yugi can stand up on his own. The duel was for the growth of Yugi, not the Pharaoh. So if there was inner conflict on the Pharaoh's part, it's still no excuse for him to not give it above 100%. It's painful for the Pharaoh to leave his friends. It's going to be even more painful if he doesn't give it his all. If his conscience wouldn't allow him to stay, it only proves that he has no faith in Yugi.

Originally Posted by goggle_boy

The hidden meaning of the duel was to see whether Yugi can stand up on his own. The duel was for the growth of Yugi, not the Pharaoh. So if there was inner conflict on the Pharaoh's part, it's still no excuse for him to not give it above 100%. It's painful for the Pharaoh to leave his friends. It's going to be even more painful if he doesn't give it his all. If his conscience wouldn't allow him to stay, it only proves that he has no faith in Yugi.

If his conscience doesn't allow him to stay, it only emphasis his care for Yugi. He couldn't have let himself to live Yugi's life knowing that his has ended long ago.

However, I do agree with the first statement; the purpose of the duel was to question whether Yugi can continue on his own.

He could've played at maximum, he possibly has indeed; this is the implication out of the polemic. Real question is: Would Atem beat Yugi if had an absolute chance?

Originally Posted by Inquisitor

IHe could've played at maximum, he possibly has indeed; this is the implication out of the polemic. Real question is: Would Atem beat Yugi if had an absolute chance?

You mean like when he summoned Osiris and was about to wipe out Yugi's life points? I'd say the anwer is yes.

Here's my take on this whole thing (think I posted earlier, but there's prolly some slight changes. Too lazy to go back anyways):

This, as many have stated, was a test not only for the Pharaoh to return to the Other World, but also to prove whether or not Yugi could stand on his own. Atem must have had several more moves after Yugi's Card of Sanctity Magic Card other than just setting a Monster Reborn. Yugi's Silent Magician had 3500 attack points after Atem's drawing. Therefore, even if Atem set another card, Osiris still would've had enough Attack points to do in Silent Magician, and Yugi could've been wide open afterwards (though he had several extra cards as well).

The negated Monster Reborn has two main meanings. First, as Ishizu/Isis stated, it told the Pharaoh that the dead should not be among the living. Second, It was Atem's last test. Had Yugi not had the correct counter to Monster Reborn, It told Atem that Yugi had not surpassed him and therefore could not stand on his own quite yet. However, if Yugi had predicted it, as he did, then Atem knew he no longer could help Yugi, as Yugi had finally outdone Atem. The Pharaoh had played all-out, and wanted one last gas attack against his 'Aibou' to see what would happen. Because Yugi had predicted Atem's last card, Atem himself, had no regrets about losing. So, while Yugi did win because he was fated to defeat and surpass Atem, because Yugi overcame Atem's last move, he also won with skill.

Thank you for listening to my stupidity.

Originally Posted by Wrath_Necross

I think Yugi played like a master but it was still fate for the fact that Atem did not fight at full power.

Like someone mentioned before if he truly wanted to win he would have used the power of Obelisk or Ra to crush Yugi that one turn and end it right there.

I think Atem did not think to use those moves because subconsciously he wanted to lose.

Fate ... atem is stronger

Originally Posted by kai_edo

Fate ... atem is stronger

Have you not read any of the posts in this thread? Just wonderng, because they contradict that statement, which is anyways too oversimplified.

Also this just might be the Anime pepole makeing a bad move but if Atem was truly trying to win he would have used a better equip card the book of mystic arts. Also when ever Atem is in a dual to win he most of the time turns the Dark Magicen in to one of its more powerfull forms like Dark Magician of Chaos. The fact that he get it like it was showed he was holding back.

Originally Posted by Slifer the Sky Dragon

cheating. why?

http://slifertheskydragon.deviantart...2-RAS-17300280

bad, bad yugi.

lol

That 2nd card isn't a Ra...

Sort of both. Writers made it look like skill and if Atem won, the story would �$%& up!

My opinion...

That was just luck...

If you didn't see,Atemu had Obelisk,Slifer and Winged Dragon of Ra,he could sacrifice the both of them,Obelsik had infinite atk points and then the duel was finished...geez...

Originally Posted by Takeru

My opinion...

That was just luck...

If you didn't see,Atemu had Obelisk,Slifer and Winged Dragon of Ra,he could sacrifice the both of them,Obelsik had infinite atk points and then the duel was finished...geez...

Except that as I already stated earlier in this thread, that was only in the anime version. In the manga, from which the key storyline in the anime is based off of, Atemu only summoned Obelisk and Osiris/Slifer, and on separate occasions. Therefore, Atemu had no such original opportunity to obliterate Yugi's LP then and there.

Besides, that wouldn't be luck so much as it would be a massive oversight on Atemu's part.

This may not have to do with skill or Fate, but .. Throughout all of ceremonial battle you saw all the characters not wanting Atem to leave. Of course you saw Yugi, and he was alittle neutral about it, I'm sure even he didn't want Atem to go, but he chose to remain silent and tell Atem how he truley feel through dueling. When Atem resummoned Osiris/Slifer and the Egyptian God was thrown back to the grave by Yugi, that was a message from Yugi to Atem saying " Those of the dead should not remain in the world of the living." When Atem realized that, he knew what had to be done, he also saw that Yugi was strong enough to stand on his own. *falls over*

well personally, I don't believe in fate so I say it was skill. Yugi didn't duel on his own very often but when he did was a great duelist and he won. He proved he could win a duel w/o Atem's help.

im going with skill on this one. he beat all the gods. that alone made the duel for me

Fate plays a big role in the plot, so it was most likely that. Skill is a factor too of course, if Yugi didn't have the skill he wouldn't have won anyway, so it's really a combination.

And Osiris sucking, as usual. His second-mouth ability keeps backfiring on his owner. In this case, literally. I better stop before I get into an off-topic "Osiris sucks" rant.

Mmmh .. probably a mixture of both.
It was Yuugi's fate as the host of the pharao's soul to beat him, so Atemu could finally go and rest in the Afterlife.
On the other hand, Yuugi knew Atemu's strategy and playing for Duel Monsters, so he could work around that and figuring out how to beat it, turning it into Skill.

C-A

Skill FTW. He must have picked up a strategy or two while watching Atem duel.

I had read all pages, I think is both for the same reasons you say, but not only those 2, there other things, as we know everyone(include Yugi) didn't want Atemu to leave, neither Atemu, Yugi had the duty as his host to separate him and Atemu goes afterlife, even though he didn't want to, Yugi needed the strenght enough too to separate him, we can see in the end of the duel, Yugi did cry,that proves enough that had thinking a lot.
some say Atemu could lose in purpose, but he didn't,just because is better or something, but Atemu said himself that he will give his best,because if he wouldn't it would a insult to himself as a "true duelist"(would agaisnt his pride),that he's always speaking, and that would prove Yugi strenght too.

and the other, New generations surpass old generations.

so there a lot of meanings in this duel, it was a duel between friends and at the same time as duty and see their strenght, games is for that, to see each other strenght and how to deal, so for me it was fate,skill and heart/soul/determinatin (inner part)

some said that this game about drawing a card is needed a lot of luck, well you need a bit of luck, when we organize a deck,we can't put in a random way(if is random,then you really need a lot of luck,then), you need the right cards that can support very well each other, a very balanced deck, so the cards was not only by luck or fate,there skill too,a well organized and balanced deck.

basically saying, They dueled as "true duelists" giving their best and seeing each other strenght, and fate, the duty of the host of the pharaoh, soul,skill and fate.

I probaly make it confusing, since I suck at explaining, so sorry if it is really confusing.

Skill, of course, altough fate has always been a deciding factor, but Yugi's combos were totally awesome.

skill. i knew it was skill because yugi was always on atem's side whenever he duels. so he came up with a strategy or maybe increased his skill while watching atem duel..

[my opinion.. xD]

I'd have to say both.

^ why both? xD

Originally Posted by eennah

^ why both? xD

if was only for skill, then they would have nothing less but a friendly duel, the fate is more as for duty of Yugi, Atemu has to get out of Yugi body and go afterlife, sometimes fate means by duty and where we have to go,like Yugi and Atemu, but since there the soul of a duelist, duelist pride,true duelist, Atemu didn't lost on purpose, he did his best just as Yugi, Yugi has to surpass Atemu to acomplish his part, well to make Atemu get out of his body, and Atemu go afterlife.

Originally Posted by Inquisitor

While it is true that Yuugi showed unexpected skills, Atemu couldn't let himself win. He has been fighting in body that doesn't belong to him, he has been waiting that end persistently in order to set Yuugi free, live his own life without any danger. It wasn't Yuugi that Bakura, Dartz, Kaiba, Marik fought; it was Atemu all along. Therefore, what would victory in that duel bring to him? More pain, suffer, perhaps more villains. Defeat was the only rational option. Atemu didn't give the best in final duel; but he could've.

It was neither skill or fate; it was choice of the Pharaoh.

didn't you hear what Atemu said, Atemu said he will give his best for pride of a duelist, and there that eye that see if you give their all, if they wouldn't. would let Atemu being in Yugi. so Atemu didn't let Yugi win

The entire crux of their destined duel was skill versus fate.

Atem's skill and ability was so powerful that he was able to bend fate to his will. His...supernatural skill and faith in his deck caused him to literally bend the cards to his will. That's Atem transcending fate and being the duel king.

That's the entire opposite of the position Yugi was in. Yugi was the one who had to go against and surpass his stronger half, with all of what he knew and learned from him. Yugi wasn't the duelist capable of drawing and knowing what card he had in his hand without looking. How could you equate Yugi's victory to fate, when fate was clearly favoring Atem. The entire point was Yugi surpassing Atem and overcoming fate and destiny.

Of course it's going to look like all the duelists in Yu-Gi-Oh! draw the exact card they need at the exact same time. But one has to have a strong suspension of disbelief to enjoy it. Of course it's going to seem like ALL duelists have fate on their side because every duel is choreographed and pre-written to fit into the narrative of the story. But when the story goes out of its way to show and explain that fate was on the side for one character in particular, and the other it was not...then that should be enough.

If Yugi was fated to win, he wouldn't have had to struggle.

skill, allied to the fact that he knew pretty much the kind of deck Atemu built

I say both fate and skill.

1. Fate because the whole plot is based on the fate/destiny of the soul of the Pharaoh. Yugi was destined to solve the Puzzle, he was destined to grow stronger and become more confident of himself, and he was destined to surpass the Pharaoh. In that context, yes, it was fate that brought Yugi's victory.

2. However, you can't ignore his skill either. Yugi does have a lot of skill, although in both the anime and manga we cannot see much of his skills. I'll set topdecking aside because they always have good topdecking. With that clear, it's obvious that Yugi pulled out some excellent combos to counter Atem, which is amazing. And my idea is that The outcome was a result of both sides doing their best.

ROAR...............l*-*l lol does it really matter about fate or skill if you have to ask me it was all up to the creator of the entire series cuz hey if i had a way to change the whole scenario of that duel i would make them tie or something. Besides we all see yugi in GX and when he battled jaden in battle city we all saw that combo he used to get slifer. therefore even then he was thinking like atemu so stfu JK peace

honestly, i think both faith and skills play role at this duel!
Atemu learned Yugi how to be strong, predictable and to put faith in every adventure he takes.
just finaly the teacher was beat by his student!
Yugi used his skills trying to think as Atemu, and the faith to save his best friend!

I would say fate but I agree also with skill. Not that Yugi is any more skilled than before, I would just say he got somewhat lucky. For example, you see a dramatic duel king who cannot win a game by himself except by 'relying' on the 'heart of the cards'. For goodness sake, at least use some nice combos instead of getting whatever card is needed at the moment to win!! Yugi evened topped that. I suppose Atem lost his luck that duel. No more 'Heart of the Cards, Guide me!!' things like that.

Originally Posted by Skyress

I would say fate but I agree also with skill. Not that Yugi is any more skilled than before, I would just say he got somewhat lucky. For example, you see a dramatic duel king who cannot win a game by himself except by 'relying' on the 'heart of the cards'. For goodness sake, at least use some nice combos instead of getting whatever card is needed at the moment to win!! Yugi evened topped that. I suppose Atem lost his luck that duel. No more 'Heart of the Cards, Guide me!!' things like that.

You're a little off base here. The 'heart of the cards' thing is largely 4Kids. Other than that, it's typical of the writers to have the adversaries to get the upper hand with better hands and whatnot, and then have the protagonist pull it out at the end in order to make things more climactic.

And there was little luck involved on Yugi's end. And contrary to what you said, Yugi made an insane combo or two, especially when in the anime he took down all 3 Egyptian gods at once.

There were some very sick combos pulled in this duel. The fact Atem was able to pull all three God cards on the field and Yugi was able to defeat them all on his own is a testament to their skill. There's no denying it. Denying it flies in the face of the story.

Yugi proved himself as a duelist and a man, being able to show he could stand up on his own and walk on his own. And Atem was finally given the rest he deserved and needed, thanks to Yugi showing his strength.

I repeat, Atem did not hold back and could *not* hold back. The eye of Ra would have seen the hesitation in Atem or Yugi's heart and thus wouldn't have allowed Atem to cross over. Pay attention. Isis repeats this over and over again. The fact the entire series ended with Atem walking into the afterlife is proof positive Atem wasn't holding back. Card game mechanics be damned. It was part of Atem's strategy and the way he played each and every card was his best with every intent to win. Just because he didn't use one of Ra's abilities so he wouldn't wastefully deplete his resources of monsters doesn't contradict the entire theme and point of the story.

Anybody thought that it was fate that he was so skilled?
I mean, he's destined to win.. because he was so skilled?
..Ehh?

Lol kind of contradictory! I think he was just fated to win personally.

The real answer here?

Both.

Yugi is fated to be the one who surpasses the Pharoah. It's driven home again and again that Atem cannot hold back during this duel- literally CANNOT. As in, incapable. The only way he can move on is if he is overcome. Yugi is the person whose fate it is to surpass the Pharoah completely. Therefore, Yugi defeats Atem. It's that simple.

As for arguments about Ra and Obelisk's effects... chalk that up to idiot anime writers wanting to make Atem look even crazier than he is in the manga, where he just summons Obelisk and later tries to revive Osiris. One at a time. Aside from that, it's also highly possible that Atem underestimated Yugi or misread his strategy. If that's the case, Yugi's win could be as much because of overconfidence on Atem's part as it was his own skill. Still, there aren't many duelists in the YGO anime capable of beating all three god cards in a single turn, and if Yugi can accomplish that I think it's safe to say that his skill is what won him the duel. I mean, how many people have pulled off a move like that during the series? It's possible that Atem thought he had effectively won the duel by summoning all three gods.

Either that, or it could be interpreted as a test: if you're strong enough to beat me, you should be able to overcome these monsters in a single turn. Something like that.