Yu-Gi-Oh! 10th Anniversary Movie ~Super Fusion! Bonds That Transcend Time~

[63cohen]

I predict no less than 100 fanboys and 10 fangirls will be there.

Wow, so precise.

[PharaohAtem]

He's talking about the fact that our previous cafuffle got moved here by Paradox and his D-Wheel by a mod.

Nonetheless, no one was specifically ranting and raving about the dub except him.

[Arynis]

Consider for a second that Paradox is the only human left alive during his time. I'm gonna guess he hasn't had a lot, and he'll take whatever he can get.

Stop thinking what I'm thinking. Damn hivemind. XD But yes, exactly.

Or he's like the Doctor. He's Really Seven Hundred Nine Hundred Years Old, and it's been a while!

Well, I double-checked the Shaadi chapters to be sure, and as I thought, he didn't have this jacket then. The only time I can recall seeing it myself is in those two chapters I mentioned before. I haven't exactly re-read the manga many times, but I don't recall it from anywhere else. As for Pegasus, I have no idea, but maybe his handkerchief got dirty?

Yeah, I said my memory wasn't clear on that one. I don't own that volume of the manga, and most online sources are gone now, so yeah.

For the handkerchief, it just vanished -- there's not even a pocket hole on his suit. (Nor we ever saw Pegasus using said handkerchief.) Granted, he could have changed to another suit which happened to look exactly like the previous one, but we're talking about a 3 day long tournament here, and no one went through a significant outfit change during that period. So I'm calling simple outfit evolution on Takahashi's part.

He's talking about the fact that our previous cafuffle got moved here by Paradox and his D-Wheel by a mod.

I predict no less than 100 fanboys and 10 fangirls will be there.

And how do you know that? You secretly have Paradox's support, don't you?!

...Oh, wait. Now that I said that, he's gonna erase me from history for the sake of a better future. Well, that's gonna su

[DarkDust_Dragon]

Wow, so precise.

I love precision.

Nonetheless, no one was specifically ranting and raving about the dub except him.

You were one of the people arguing over it and you know it. Now let's just drop it, okay?

Stop thinking what I'm thinking. Damn hivemind. XD But yes, exactly.

Or he's like the Doctor. He's Really Seven Hundred Nine Hundred Years Old, and it's been a while!

More like negative Nine Hundred, seeing as he traveled back to, and died in, a time that long predates his own.

And how do you know that? You secretly have Paradox's support, don't you?!

...Oh, wait. Now that I said that, he's gonna erase me from history for the sake of a better future. Well, that's gonna su

I cannot reveal my sources.

*Placido*

"I think it's time you disappeared."

Fu

[Arynis]

More like negative Nine Hundred, seeing as he traveled back to, and died in, a time that long predates his own.

True that. What would that make the Doctor, though? He travels into the past and future alike. No wonder he changes his age every incarnation.

I cannot reveal my sources.

*Placido*

"I think it's time you disappeared."

Fu

So Paradox and Placido are the new Candle Jack? Hey wait a s

[DarkDust_Dragon]

True that. What would that make the Doctor, though? He travels into the past and future alike. No wonder he changes his age every incarnation.

Uh... my guess is if we tried, his age would be stated as "inapplicable". Especially considering that non-humans use different standards of age. (Hell, even different cultures use different ones.

So Paradox and Placido are the new Candle Jack? Hey wait a s

It's worse than that...



He's come for us a...

[Arynis]

Yeah, that's true. Time Lords do live for centuries, and a 90 year old Time Lord is still considered young.

As for The Man Whose Name May Not Be Mentioned... we are ****ed.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention this in this thread as well. Ark mentioned in the Speculations Thread that the movie may be not referenced to in the series at all due to avoiding controversy.

And I think Mako makes a good point. Just because Yusei hasn't mentioned [the movie's events] doesn't mean the movie didn't unhappen.

Though, I think they're trying to perhaps avoid a Decade fiasco with the Movie (In that watching it is necessary viewing for understanding the entire current plot. Toei got a huge shit-storm from the Network Moral Guardians for how they originally ended Kamen Rider Decade and how the movie answered things, in that it was basically forcing kids to pay more money to get the entire series and all the questions answered. Toei had to apparently make a huge apology for that.)

That would explain why Yoshida dropped hints regarding Paradox in the Animation Book only and not in the series itself. Although it makes me wonder if that would make the movie a complete side story, with no connection to the main series apart from featuring Paradox in 5D's. Or, the movie did happen from the view of the main series, but is not referenced for the above reasons.

That would make Paradox an interesting case as well. How would he appear in 5D's? Would he keep the same traits he had in the movie, or would be brought up on a Continuity Nod level only? Would he be completely different instead? (Ie. his movie self may have been a mask, so to speak.)

If the movie's events did occur, then Paradox's future would be subjected to the Tenors' history rewrite. Of course, this is where it gets funny -- if Paradox's circumstances are altered due to that, he may not even travel back to steal Stardust Dragon and whatnot. But, the movie's events did happen from the Signers' perspective, because they are protected by good ol' Crimsey and are immune to history rewrites. So Yusei would know that Paradox did what he will have not actually done.

But that brings up the next question. Would Paradox be immune from the Tenors' changes? He is a time traveler, which would by its nature make him immune to history rewrites, ala Time Traveler's Immunity or Ripple Effect Proof Memory. With that in mind, Paradox would still go and act as if he went on doing the movie's events. Or, he becomes aware of the history rewrite and decides to do things differently on his own.

Either way, either versions would need to be true in order for us to "find out Paradox's true character", as he was just killed off in the movie. In the past. You can't really expand a character like that... unless Paradox is like River Song -- So Paradox died in his first appearance, yet you still see him do a lot of other things due to Timey Wimey Ball.

Or, the third option, an external force makes him act differently (eg. Zone) or grabs him out of his time period in the distant future, making events turn out in a different manner.

[DarkDust_Dragon]

Yeah, that's true. Time Lords do live for centuries, and a 90 year old Time Lord is still considered young.

As for The Man Whose Name May Not Be Mentioned... we are ****ed.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention this in this thread as well. Ark mentioned in the Speculations Thread that the movie may be not referenced to in the series at all due to avoiding controversy.

You know, funny you should say that, as I was reading this page when I saw that description.

That would explain why Yoshida dropped hints regarding Paradox in the Animation Book only and not in the series itself. Although it makes me wonder if that would make the movie a complete side story, with no connection to the main series apart from featuring Paradox in 5D's. Or, the movie did happen from the view of the main series, but is not referenced for the above reasons.

That would make Paradox an interesting case as well. How would he appear in 5D's? Would he keep the same traits he had in the movie, or would be brought up on a Continuity Nod level only? Would he be completely different instead? (Ie. his movie self may have been a mask, so to speak.)

If the movie's events did occur, then Paradox's future would be subjected to the Tenors' history rewrite. Of course, this is where it gets funny -- if Paradox's circumstances are altered due to that, he may not even travel back to steal Stardust Dragon and whatnot. But, the movie's events did happen from the Signers' perspective, because they are protected by good ol' Crimsey and are immune to history rewrites. So Yusei would know that Paradox did what he will have not actually done.

But that brings up the next question. Would Paradox be immune from the Tenors' changes? He is a time traveler, which would by its nature make him immune to history rewrites, ala Time Traveler's Immunity or Ripple Effect Proof Memory. With that in mind, Paradox would still go and act as if he went on doing the movie's events. Or, he becomes aware of the history rewrite and decides to do things differently on his own.

Either way, either versions would need to be true in order for us to "find out Paradox's true character", as he was just killed off in the movie. In the past. You can't really expand a character like that... unless Paradox is like River Song -- So Paradox died in his first appearance, yet you still see him do a lot of other things due to Timey Wimey Ball.

Or, the third option, an external force makes him act differently (eg. Zone) or grabs him out of his time period in the distant future, making events turn out in a different manner.

The only thing I can think to say is to point out all the hype for Transformers 2: RotF. Michael Bay went on an all-out "misinformation campaign", spreading various rumours as facts until he changed the story. My guess is that's exactly what's happening right now.

[63cohen]

Controversy? What controversy?

[Makoeyes987]

The history rewrite would have no affect whatsoever on Paradox because Paradox was already destined to lose and make his attack on the past in the first place. Him traveling back in time is him following the outcome of events regardless. Paradox has to travel back in time because he obviously never succeeded in his quest in the first place, because if he did, he wouldn't have had to travel back in time to try and kill Pegasus in the first place. He was wrong.

If the rewrite or whatever the Tenors did changed anything and effected their goal and the timeline in anyway in the first place, it'd have never happened because it would've succeeded and thus no actual reason for going back there would present itself in the first place. The very fact it happens determines that in the very end nothing's changed at all.

And considering all Placido did was erase Momentum Express from existence, and inject Team New World into the WRGP, why would that change anything hundreds of years in the future? Unless you're going at this from a Butterfly Effect angle, the changes they made were to the immediate past, towards the short term realization of their goals. They didn't drastically change anything.

[63cohen]

5Ds doesn't seem to follow Butterfly Effect logic, time rippling with small changes leading to the final change (as per the movie). There was only one ripple and time changed, and no one (except the Signers and those with other powers) noticed. If it followed BE logic (from the movie) people would notice the changed quite dramatically. And the deciding factor (if all this isn't good enough) is that you would never be able to travel back to the exact time where the change took place due to the ripples coming in time. You would miss, no matter where you went back in time. Paradox would have been late to Yusei's, Judai's, and Yugi's times.

Cool controversy though, did LeArk come up with the whole thing himself?

[DarkDust_Dragon]

The history rewrite would have no affect whatsoever on Paradox because Paradox was already destined to lose and make his attack on the past in the first place. Him traveling back in time is him following the outcome of events regardless. Paradox has to travel back in time because he obviously never succeeded in his quest in the first place, because if he did, he wouldn't have had to travel back in time to try and kill Pegasus in the first place. He was wrong.

If the rewrite or whatever the Tenors did changed anything and effected their goal and the timeline in anyway in the first place, it'd have never happened because it would've succeeded and thus no actual reason for going back there would present itself in the first place. The very fact it happens determines that in the very end nothing's changed at all.

And considering all Placido did was erase Momentum Express from existence, and inject Team New World into the WRGP, why would that change anything hundreds of years in the future? Unless you're going at this from a Butterfly Effect angle, the changes they made were to the immediate past, towards the short term realization of their goals. They didn't drastically change anything.

No, they didn't; but that doesn't mean the changes made don't have significant impact. An icy pond doesn't shatter from one crack. It shatters because that crack eventually splits into multiple, and eventually these reach the edges and cost the ice its integrity. Most likely, you're right, and it did nothing; but if it was the changes by Yliaster that changed the future for the worst in the first place, it would be the best foreshadow ever.

[Makoeyes987]

No, they didn't; but that doesn't mean the changes made don't have significant impact. An icy pond doesn't shatter from one crack. It shatters because that crack eventually splits into multiple, and eventually these reach the edges and cost the ice its integrity. Most likely, you're right, and it did nothing; but if it was the changes by Yliaster that changed the future for the worst in the first place, it would be the best foreshadow ever.

That'd be the Butterfly Effect.

And we don't know if Yliaster was the cause of the bad future, or if its something completely unrelated or unavoidable in the first place. Either way, whatever change happened, happened because in the future, it never worked in the first place and won't work ever, because time is already adjusted to the path that they lose. The Yliaster trio, I suppose due to the nature of the plot, are quite clueless in how their own time manipulating powers work. All they'd have to do is think for a second to realize that they can't possibly win because if they did win, they wouldn't have to try so hard to in the first place. Their future counterparts would've made things work already.

The fact Yusei got a Tablet probably should've clued them in, that things weren't exactly what they thought they would be.

[Arynis]

fffffffffffffffffffffffff-

Well, at least I know I can rely on you for small details of Time Travel thingajigs. XD

The history rewrite would have no affect whatsoever on Paradox because Paradox was already destined to lose and make his attack on the past in the first place. Him traveling back in time is him following the outcome of events regardless. Paradox has to travel back in time because he obviously never succeeded in his quest in the first place, because if he did, he wouldn't have had to travel back in time to try and kill Pegasus in the first place. He was wrong.

Point. But what if, say, the world were to be destroyed for a different reason, other than Duel Monsters? He wouldn't go back to kill Pegasus specifically in that case. He'd go for whoever was responsible for [source of destruction]. Although if Paradox does have immunity, it wouldn't matter, he'd still think Pegasus was the wrench in the timeline. Hrm.

If the rewrite or whatever the Tenors did changed anything and effected their goal and the timeline in anyway in the first place, it'd have never happened because it would've succeeded and thus no actual reason for going back there would present itself in the first place. The very fact it happens determines that in the very end nothing's changed at all.

The thing is, we still don't know the exact origins of the Tenors. They speak of "this world", as well as Bruno. We don't know if they are from the future (thus if any changes to the future would affect them) or if someplace else.

And considering all Placido did was erase Momentum Express from existence, and inject Team New World into the WRGP, why would that change anything hundreds of years in the future? Unless you're going at this from a Butterfly Effect angle, the changes they made were to the immediate past, towards the short term realization of their goals. They didn't drastically change anything.

Because in the long run, Illiaster has been mucking with history for ages? It would add up eventually ala Butterfly Effect. Although I see your point, injecting themselves into the WRGP wouldn't do anything significant... apart from leaving the Public Security Director rank empty. Oops. It has been also stated that Illiaster used the Infinity. What if they cause something drastic in the near future?

And we don't know if Yliaster was the cause of the bad future, or if its something completely unrelated or unavoidable in the first place. Either way, whatever change happened, happened because in the future, it never worked in the first place and won't work ever, because time is already adjusted to the path that they lose. The Yliaster trio, I suppose due to the nature of the plot, are quite clueless in how their own time manipulating powers work. All they'd have to do is think for a second to realize that they can't possibly win because if they did win, they wouldn't have to try so hard to in the first place. Their future counterparts would've made things work already.

The fact Yusei got a Tablet probably should've clued them in, that things weren't exactly what they thought they would be.

That's true. That would make Luciano's "without us, you'd be in trouble" line even funnier. XD

That's right, too. But that shows that the future would go through some kind of a change eventually, regardless of it not getting fixed ever. Or... something.

@ Cohen: I was referring to this:

And I think Mako makes a good point. Just because Yusei hasn't mentioned [the movie's events] doesn't mean the movie didn't unhappen.

Though, I think they're trying to perhaps avoid a Decade fiasco with the Movie (In that watching it is necessary viewing for understanding the entire current plot. Toei got a huge shit-storm from the Network Moral Guardians for how they originally ended Kamen Rider Decade and how the movie answered things, in that it was basically forcing kids to pay more money to get the entire series and all the questions answered. Toei had to apparently make a huge apology for that.)

[63cohen]

Well, that could be why 4kids/Konami is making it available for America as well. Perhaps they will have a broadcast version so kids don't have to pay money to see it (as with Turtles Forever).

[DarkDust_Dragon]

That'd be the Butterfly Effect.

I know; but everything is better with metaphors.

And we don't know if Yliaster was the cause of the bad future, or if its something completely unrelated or unavoidable in the first place. Either way, whatever change happened, happened because in the future, it never worked in the first place and won't work ever, because time is already adjusted to the path that they lose. The Yliaster trio, I suppose due to the nature of the plot, are quite clueless in how their own time manipulating powers work. All they'd have to do is think for a second to realize that they can't possibly win because if they did win, they wouldn't have to try so hard to in the first place. Their future counterparts would've made things work already.

I'm a little sketchy on that phrase, but I think I know what you meant by that. And while they may or may not know, their master is a God. Gods ahve percetion beyond mere beings.

The fact Yusei got a Tablet probably should've clued them in, that things weren't exactly what they thought they would be.

It did. Listen to Jose's line in 109. "Is this proof of humans coming before us? WE must watch further." He knew something different was happening. He's just not sure what.

[Makoeyes987]

fffffffffffffffffffffffff-

Well, at least I know I can rely on you for small details of Time Travel thingajigs. XD

XDDDD

Point. But what if, say, the world were to be destroyed for a different reason, other than Duel Monsters? He wouldn't go back to kill Pegasus specifically in that case. He'd go for whoever was responsible for [source of destruction]. Although if Paradox does have immunity, it wouldn't matter, he'd still think Pegasus was the wrench in the timeline. Hrm.

Then the question you have to ask, is what's the predetermined cause? Is it that DM is destined to destroy the planet, or is the planet destined from the destruction no matter what happens?

Because what you're describing there is, the planet being doomed from the very beginning. It doesn't matter whether it be through cards, war, or the like. Paradox would be beaten, but whatever happens, still happens. Now either Paradox is the cause, the cause he believed was wrong, or the world is just destined to be destroyed no matter how many times you travel back in time to stop it.

If time travel exists and someone tries to go back in time to fix it, then 9 times out of 10, they're going to fail, because it can't be stopped in the first place. Because if it could, you wouldn't be time traveling in the first place.

If you look at the 2002 adaption of H.G. Wells's "The Time Machine," Hartdegen realizes this dilemma when he tries to go back into the past to prevent his fiance from getting killed in a street mugging. He saves her from getting mugged, but then she ends up getting killed by something else. And something else. And something else. No matter what he does, she dies.

And that's because of the predestination paradox. Whatever happens, is gonna happen in some way shape or form because the loop of time travel has to be closed shut, and be the catalyst for time travel to be invented and used in the first place.

The thing is, we still don't know the exact origins of the Tenors. They speak of "this world", as well as Bruno. We don't know if they are from the future (thus if any changes to the future would affect them) or if someplace else.

It doesn't matter where they come from. Time transcends and permeates everything. They'd still be under the influence of casual loop. They'd have to realize them traveling into the past would cause such a problem.

Because in the long run, Illiaster has been mucking with history for ages? It would add up eventually ala Butterfly Effect. Although I see your point, injecting themselves into the WRGP wouldn't do anything significant... apart from leaving the Public Security Director rank empty. Oops. It has been also stated that Illiaster used the Infinity. What if they cause something drastic in the near future?

Not necessarily. Because again. If time travel is supposed to exist, there has to be a place where the loop closes. The butterfly effect assumes that no casual loop would influence or determine how time traveling would resolve itself within a continuity. But if they've meddled in the past before, then that meddling would in the end mean nothing because it was predetermined to occur in the first place. Not only that, but it's actually known by outsiders, limited in number as they may be.

The whole Infinity Device is not a perfect time altering tool. If it were, it would be capable of completely falsifying history. But considering certain chosen individuals can escape its influence, then something is flawed with it. Either it only shifts the chain of events slightly and has a limited scope, or in some strange metaphysical context, certain people and events transcend time and are somehow immovable.

The Yliaster Trio using Infinity for example didn't really change much, aside from what they wanted. Even the Security position wasn't changed since Yeager was allowed to take his post per usual and we aren't shown any weirdness there at all.

That's true. That would make Luciano's "without us, you'd be in trouble" line even funnier. XD

That's right, too. But that shows that the future would go through some kind of a change eventually, regardless of it not getting fixed ever. Or... something.

I think what's going to happen is that even when the Yliaster Emperors are defeated, the Final Momentum's going to have to be confronted in some way regardless. But then again, that all depends on what the Circuit is going to do. Are they trying to complete it to prevent the Momentum disaster from happening, or to hasten it?

It did. Listen to Jose's line in 109. "Is this proof of humans coming before us? WE must watch further." He knew something different was happening. He's just not sure what.

@ Cohen: I was referring to this:

Oh yeah, that's right. But he still doesn't seem to understand how significant a change like that is. Oh wellz.

[DarkDust_Dragon]

Oh yeah, that's right. But he still doesn't seem to understand how significant a change like that is. Oh wellz.

Then that's really fitting. Infinity is not a number by mathematical standards; it cannot be added to, subtracted from, or multiplied or divided by anything. Infinity is a concept; one which philosophy says the human mind cannot truly comprehend. The Future has an infinite number of possibilities. Perhaps the best afterthought concept ever?

[Arynis]

Then the question you have to ask, is what's the predetermined cause? Is it that DM is destined to destroy the planet, or is the planet destined from the destruction no matter what happens?

Hmm, good point. Although Jose mentioned that no matter what they do, there's always an unavoidable future.

Yusei: What do you mean by changing the future?
Crow: You guys couldn't be saying you already know of the future, right?!

[...]

Jose: Illiaster is an organization that God created in order to set the course of the Earth's history. Our organization has existed since ancient times, and exists everywhere. No matter how you all try to change it, you can't change the whole picture.

[...]

Jose: But we realized that no matter how we try to guide the future, there's an unavoidable future.

[...]

Jose: But we were able to come into this time and create a new plan.

Because what you're describing there is, the planet being doomed from the very beginning. It doesn't matter whether it be through cards, war, or the like. Paradox would be beaten, but whatever happens, still happens. Now either Paradox is the cause, the cause he believed was wrong, or the world is just destined to be destroyed no matter how many times you travel back in time to stop it.

But if Paradox is the cause (referring to your "Paradox is in a loop" theory here), then Paradox dying would fix everything. But it didn't. And going by Jose's line above, it seems to imply everyone's just struggling hopelessly. Although there was a difference: Jose said in an earlier episode that they will save the future, while Paradox said he wants to reach the best history by experimenting. (Although Paradox later adds that he must save the hopeless future, so... yeah.) So you could say that Illiaster wants to try fixing the future so it doesn't get destroyed. You could take Paradox's line as "Let's make the best out of history, regardless of the outcome". But since he said that he must save the future, you could say he's also doing it all in vain.

If time travel exists and someone tries to go back in time to fix it, then 9 times out of 10, they're going to fail, because it can't be stopped in the first place. Because if it could, you wouldn't be time traveling in the first place.

If you look at the 2002 adaption of H.G. Wells's "The Time Machine," Hartdegen realizes this dilemma when he tries to go back into the past to prevent his fiance from getting killed in a street mugging. He saves her from getting mugged, but then she ends up getting killed by something else. And something else. And something else. No matter what he does, she dies.

And that's because of the predestination paradox. Whatever happens, is gonna happen in some way shape or form because the loop of time travel has to be closed shut, and be the catalyst for time travel to be invented and used in the first place.

Hey, I saw that adaptation! I thought it was pretty cool until I heard about the Adaptation Decay...

Yeah, in that case, definitely. He wanted to travel in time to save his fianc�e, and invented the time machine for that very reason. But if he saves his fianc�e, he will never have made the time machine to save her, but he just did, and... yeah. But anyway, that would be a Grandfather Paradox -- do not prevent the reason you traveled back in time. The timeline's just fixing itself by getting the fianc�e killed, to uphold the Status Quo. It would be a Predestination Paradox if it was actually him killing his own fianc�e. (Although I don't really remember the deaths anymore, I know of the mugging one and the one where she got hit by the dog cart. So if he killed his fianc�e, even by "accident", I don't remember.)

In Paradox's case, it would be a Grandfather Paradox -- if he's going back in time to save the future, then saving the future would cause a paradox. In the Tenors' case, if they were responsible for destroying the future, it would be a Predestination Paradox. Otherwise, this would be another Grandfather Paradox.

However. It entirely depends on the timeline's mechanics. How are paradoxes dealt with? Does the timeline attempt to fix itself? What does a paradox result in?

Going by the movie, killing Pegasus somehow resulted in the entire world falling apart. Going by our information, it's not clear exactly what causes the dimension falling apart, all we know is that they occur soon after Paradox left the period in question, leading me to think that Paradox had already killed Pegasus by that point, (ie. Meantime In The Future) and this led to a paradox due to Pegasus not being able to create Rainbow Dragon, for instance. Yusei confronting Paradox in the GX period was just him "catching up" to the timeframe, so to speak. Therefore, this would mean that yes, temporal paradoxes are icky business for the YGOverse... which would make it a really risky path for Paradox and the Tenors to walk on. (To an extent, Zone as well.)

As for the timeline itself changing, it could either branch off from the main timeline for each change, or time travel involves a parallel universe. The Tenors' meddling confirms that changes are done in the same timeline (ie. no parallel universes or branches), and that said changes overwrite the timeline. In other words, 5D's went for the most risky and sensitive choices for the timeline mechanics. So yay. XD

(And to add, Delayed Ripple Effect is also in play, ala reality getting gradually destroyed in the movie and the Tenors' history rewrite.)

Of course, they could always choose to break down the rules, somehow. Wipe out the entire universe, keep the Earth alive somehow, make the Clock Roaches their *******. Like in Doctor Who. Of course, if they ever pull out something like that, it's Free For All. And considering how Paradox mentioned the world is full of contradictions, they seem to be on the way there. It's only a matter of time all the time travel shenanigans collapses on itself and bad things happen.

Or ultimately, time travel is used merely for Timey Wimey Ball action and Mind Screw. Or just... Wibbly-Wobbly Timey-Wimey Ball. (Okay, sorry. I just like using that word. XD It goes ding and stuff!)

It doesn't matter where they come from. Time transcends and permeates everything. They'd still be under the influence of casual loop. They'd have to realize them traveling into the past would cause such a problem.

Right. But... they don't? They blame it all on the humans! "Humans are selfish, humans are greedy, humans can't take care of themselves" and so on. Could they be standing above time, so to speak, so they don't have such realizations? Or... something.

Besides, only the Tenors and Bruno seem to call it "this world", which would imply some external origin. (Or it could be because they were created by Zone, who is sitting in his own dimension anyway.) Paradox said he came from the distant future, which would again imply the differences between them. (Although for all we know, Paradox could be a can of worms on his own.

Not necessarily. Because again. If time travel is supposed to exist, there has to be a place where the loop closes. The butterfly effect assumes that no casual loop would influence or determine how time traveling would resolve itself within a continuity. But if they've meddled in the past before, then that meddling would in the end mean nothing because it was predetermined to occur in the first place. Not only that, but it's actually known by outsiders, limited in number as they may be.

"The butterfly effect assumes that no casual loop would influence or determine how time traveling would resolve itself within a continuity."

What do you mean, exactly? I'm kind of confused.

The whole Infinity Device is not a perfect time altering tool. If it were, it would be capable of completely falsifying history. But considering certain chosen individuals can escape its influence, then something is flawed with it. Either it only shifts the chain of events slightly and has a limited scope, or in some strange metaphysical context, certain people and events transcend time and are somehow immovable.

I think the latter version is a better choice. Even if Illiaster's alterations were predetermined, they used it to fix all kinds of problems using Infinity and influential people from the top of society. But only the Signers (and those near them) and Team Ragnarok were able to escape the history rewrite. I think Crimson Dragon would make sense, because it's reputed to control fate, and predetermination > time travel. Not to mention that Crimson Dragon is capable of time travel powers, which could bestow Ripple Effect Proof Memory on the Signers.

For Team Ragnarok... They do possess deities, which are supposed to stand above everything as Gods, and they are linked to them by their Runes. That bond with their Gods could be protecting them from such alterations.

The Yliaster Trio using Infinity for example didn't really change much, aside from what they wanted. Even the Security position wasn't changed since Yeager was allowed to take his post per usual and we aren't shown any weirdness there at all.

But didn't Jack mention it was a contradiction?

I think what's going to happen is that even when the Yliaster Emperors are defeated, the Final Momentum's going to have to be confronted in some way regardless. But then again, that all depends on what the Circuit is going to do. Are they trying to complete it to prevent the Momentum disaster from happening, or to hasten it?

Screw everyone over. Badly. But that's a good question, really. The Final Momentum is coming, but we don't know why. Is it the Circuit drawing in the Final Momentum ala Time Crash in Chrono Cross, sending Chronopolis 10000 years back into the past? (Or wherever the Final Momentum is stashed away, be it an alternate timeline or the future. Although, if we're going by Chrono Cross, something else would have to be brought in in order to counter it... unless the Final Momentum is what attempting to counter the Circuit. Oops.) Use the Final Momentum to end all Momentum systems on Earth? Are the Tenors trying to use the Circuit's Momentum power to nullify/nuke the Final Momentum? But seeing how the Circuit scene cut to the Final Momentum emerging, there's an undeniable connection... Hrm.

Let's see. They need something to nuke the entire Neo Domino City. We don't know exactly how the Circuit operates, or exactly where the power is gathered, for that matter. The Final Momentum is capable of wiping out the entire human race, so it would definitely have enough firepower to nuke the place... and everything else.

Of course, this would pose a few problems. Who developed the Final Momentum, and how? If it's from the future, nuking it in the present would be kind of... yeah. It would also pose problems with Yusei and Bruno witnessing the Final Momentum, which, given the immunity, would make it a fixed point in time, although the Final Momentum was shown to be seen across a rift in time anyway. An alternate timeline would be the least problematic, becuase removing the Final Momentum from there wouldn't cause complications for the current one. (For the sake of simplicity, we don't give a damn about that other timeline. XD)

Then that's really fitting. Infinity is not a number by mathematical standards; it cannot be added to, subtracted from, or multiplied or divided by anything. Infinity is a concept; one which philosophy says the human mind cannot truly comprehend. The Future has an infinite number of possibilities. Perhaps the best afterthought concept ever?

Hey, I like that interpretation. It would neatly explain their ironic flaw, too -- they are supposed to be standing above all, the "guardians" of history who believe they are putting things in the right place. And yet, they are unaware of what they are doing themselves. Or realize what they should be doing. Or... yeah, you get the picture.

[DarkDust_Dragon]

Hey, I like that interpretation. It would neatly explain their ironic flaw, too -- they are supposed to be standing above all, the "guardians" of history who believe they are putting things in the right place. And yet, they are unaware of what they are doing themselves. Or realize what they should be doing. Or... yeah, you get the picture.

Yes, I do.

Oh, and:

Going by the movie, killing Pegasus somehow resulted in the entire world falling apart. Going by our information, it's not clear exactly what causes the dimension falling apart, all we know is that they occur soon after Paradox left the period in question, leading me to think that Paradox had already killed Pegasus by that point, (ie. Meantime In The Future) and this led to a paradox due to Pegasus not being able to create Rainbow Dragon, for instance. Yusei confronting Paradox in the GX period was just him "catching up" to the timeframe, so to speak. Therefore, this would mean that yes, temporal paradoxes are icky business for the YGOverse... which would make it a really risky path for Paradox and the Tenors to walk on. (To an extent, Zone as well.)

There is actually a Paradox created by doing this. If Rainbow Dragon was never created, it cannot be used in Pegasus' assassination; thus, Pegasus cannot be killed. (I know the footage shows Cyber End doing this, but he had to be made by Pegasus to; though what off of is a mystery.) Thus, no matter how hard Paradox tries, he is trapped in an endless loop.

History runs on a single, forward path. You cannot enter a cyclical path in history without repercussions. It thus makes sense that Paradox destroyed his own world by trying to fix it.

[Makoeyes987]

Hmm, good point. Although Jose mentioned that no matter what they do, there's always an unavoidable future.

Exactly. So we don't know what that is, and that's what makes me think the Final Momentum is something that can't be avoided. Only dealt with. But we're not told what the future is per se. So we just have to wait and see.

But if Paradox is the cause (referring to your "Paradox is in a loop" theory here), then Paradox dying would fix everything. But it didn't. And going by Jose's line above, it seems to imply everyone's just struggling hopelessly. Although there was a difference: Jose said in an earlier episode that they will save the future, while Paradox said he wants to reach the best history by experimenting. (Although Paradox later adds that he must save the hopeless future, so... yeah.) So you could say that Illiaster wants to try fixing the future so it doesn't get destroyed. You could take Paradox's line as "Let's make the best out of history, regardless of the outcome". But since he said that he must save the future, you could say he's also doing it all in vain.

Paradox dying wouldn't necessarily "fix" anything. It'd merely allow for time to march on because it's the standard outcome of what reality is supposed to be. What would fix everything would be them defeating Paradox, and either transcending time to keep reality from disintegrating, or something else. Whatever disaster occurred more than likely occurred regardless cause Paradox decided to travel time and thus fulfill his role in history. So either it's him, or something unrelated to him. I'm going to go with the former because its the only answer we have now that makes sense.

Hey, I saw that adaptation! I thought it was pretty cool until I heard about the Adaptation Decay...

People should know better than to expect classic works of literature to be completely adapted properly in movies. I mean, really. It should be enjoyed for what it is, tbh. It was good as a movie, not a page-for-page retelling of the novel.

Yeah, in that case, definitely. He wanted to travel in time to save his fianc�e, and invented the time machine for that very reason. But if he saves his fianc�e, he will never have made the time machine to save her, but he just did, and... yeah. But anyway, that would be a Grandfather Paradox -- do not prevent the reason you traveled back in time. The timeline's just fixing itself by getting the fianc�e killed, to uphold the Status Quo. It would be a Predestination Paradox if it was actually him killing his own fianc�e. (Although I don't really remember the deaths anymore, I know of the mugging one and the one where she got hit by the dog cart. So if he killed his fianc�e, even by "accident", I don't remember.)

No, he never accidentally killed her. And yes, if he did save her, then basically he'd never build the time machine in the first place.

In Paradox's case, it would be a Grandfather Paradox -- if he's going back in time to save the future, then saving the future would cause a paradox. In the Tenors' case, if they were responsible for destroying the future, it would be a Predestination Paradox. Otherwise, this would be another Grandfather Paradox.

Which is why neither of them can succeed in the first place, not taking into consideration the whole plot wouldn't allow them to in the first place, as well. They're destined to fail because look. They're going back into the past to make it happen as well.

However. It entirely depends on the timeline's mechanics. How are paradoxes dealt with? Does the timeline attempt to fix itself? What does a paradox result in?

Well apparently in YGO, a paradox results in the universe basically killing itself so...

Going by the movie, killing Pegasus somehow resulted in the entire world falling apart. Going by our information, it's not clear exactly what causes the dimension falling apart, all we know is that they occur soon after Paradox left the period in question, leading me to think that Paradox had already killed Pegasus by that point, (ie. Meantime In The Future) and this led to a paradox due to Pegasus not being able to create Rainbow Dragon, for instance. Yusei confronting Paradox in the GX period was just him "catching up" to the timeframe, so to speak. Therefore, this would mean that yes, temporal paradoxes are icky business for the YGOverse... which would make it a really risky path for Paradox and the Tenors to walk on. (To an extent, Zone as well.)

Yeah. And if any sort of paradox did happen in 5Ds well...something would've happened and thus, the timeline would more than likely suffer from it. If they actually did any outside damage that wasn't meant to be, then a negative consequence would've manifested itself.

As for the timeline itself changing, it could either branch off from the main timeline for each change, or time travel involves a parallel universe. The Tenors' meddling confirms that changes are done in the same timeline (ie. no parallel universes or branches), and that said changes overwrite the timeline. In other words, 5D's went for the most risky and sensitive choices for the timeline mechanics. So yay. XD

But even then, I don't think The Emperors really did much harm in the first place. Their little history falsification shockwave was able to be negated partially. That's rather weak.

Of course, they could always choose to break down the rules, somehow. Wipe out the entire universe, keep the Earth alive somehow, make the Clock Roaches their *******. Like in Doctor Who. Of course, if they ever pull out something like that, it's Free For All. And considering how Paradox mentioned the world is full of contradictions, they seem to be on the way there. It's only a matter of time all the time travel shenanigans collapses on itself and bad things happen.

Well that all depends on how it ends, really. It could also neatly resolve itself too, which I think is going to be the case. I doubt there will be anything less than a happy ending, especially if the end of the Dark Signer arc is any indication of the direction of the writers.

Or ultimately, time travel is used merely for Timey Wimey Ball action and Mind Screw. Or just... Wibbly-Wobbly Timey-Wimey Ball. (Okay, sorry. I just like using that word. XD It goes ding and stuff!)

That's basically all it is in the end, anyways.

Right. But... they don't? They blame it all on the humans! "Humans are selfish, humans are greedy, humans can't take care of themselves" and so on. Could they be standing above time, so to speak, so they don't have such realizations? Or... something.

Besides, only the Tenors and Bruno seem to call it "this world", which would imply some external origin. (Or it could be because they were created by Zone, who is sitting in his own dimension anyway.) Paradox said he came from the distant future, which would again imply the differences between them. (Although for all we know, Paradox could be a can of worms on his own.

Paradox naturally comes from the same world and universe as the characters. As for the Yliaster and Bruno, they probably come from another dimension. But that wouldn't really change anything. A predestination paradox would even include them regardless of where they come from. Time will always correct itself no matter what.

"The butterfly effect assumes that no casual loop would influence or determine how time traveling would resolve itself within a continuity."

What do you mean, exactly? I'm kind of confused.

The butterfly effects basically assumes that yes, you can change the past quite easily, and everything you do, no matter how small has vast, unknown consequences to the current time period and future. Meaning I could go back in time and step on a bug back during the Prehistoric era, and come back to my own time period and find the world ruled by mutated, talking cockroaches who have enslaved humanity.

The timeline doesn't try to realign itself neatly or resolve any discrepancies. It just runs with them.

I think the latter version is a better choice. Even if Illiaster's alterations were predetermined, they used it to fix all kinds of problems using Infinity and influential people from the top of society. But only the Signers (and those near them) and Team Ragnarok were able to escape the history rewrite. I think Crimson Dragon would make sense, because it's reputed to control fate, and predetermination > time travel. Not to mention that Crimson Dragon is capable of time travel powers, which could bestow Ripple Effect Proof Memory on the Signers.

For Team Ragnarok... They do possess deities, which are supposed to stand above everything as Gods, and they are linked to them by their Runes. That bond with their Gods could be protecting them from such alterations.

We don't know what problems they used it to fix, and if they were going to be fixed anyways. For all we know, they tried to use the machine to go back in time to assassinate Hit13r as a baby, which only resulted in Hit1er's father secretly adopting a child and raising him to be the Adolf Hit1er we know of today. And thus nothing changed at all. History isn't something that can just be edited and cherry picked. (and why the hell is Hit1er censored? wtf?)

And there's the fact that whatever happened further in the past doesn't seem to change anything. Or Hell, by the logic introduced by Team Ragnarok, Yugi, Kaiba, Malik, or anyone with the Millennium Items wouldn't be effected by the history falsification because they either have God cards or some other supernatural protection.

It just doesn't seem consistent or relevant to the greater timeline as a whole. At all.

But didn't Jack mention it was a contradiction?

What are you talking about?

Screw everyone over. Badly. But that's a good question, really. The Final Momentum is coming, but we don't know why. Is it the Circuit drawing in the Final Momentum ala Time Crash in Chrono Cross, sending Chronopolis 10000 years back into the past? (Or wherever the Final Momentum is stashed away, be it an alternate timeline or the future. Although, if we're going by Chrono Cross, something else would have to be brought in in order to counter it... unless the Final Momentum is what attempting to counter the Circuit. Oops.) Use the Final Momentum to end all Momentum systems on Earth? Are the Tenors trying to use the Circuit's Momentum power to nullify/nuke the Final Momentum? But seeing how the Circuit scene cut to the Final Momentum emerging, there's an undeniable connection... Hrm.

It's too hard to speculate. We don't even know what the circuit does so we're just shooting in the dark regarding that, honestly.

Of course, this would pose a few problems. Who developed the Final Momentum, and how? If it's from the future, nuking it in the present would be kind of... yeah. It would also pose problems with Yusei and Bruno witnessing the Final Momentum, which, given the immunity, would make it a fixed point in time, although the Final Momentum was shown to be seen across a rift in time anyway. An alternate timeline would be the least problematic, becuase removing the Final Momentum from there wouldn't cause complications for the current one. (For the sake of simplicity, we don't give a damn about that other timeline. XD)

We just don't know what it is. It's just...there's a lack of information.

[Arynis]

Exactly. So we don't know what that is, and that's what makes me think the Final Momentum is something that can't be avoided. Only dealt with. But we're not told what the future is per se. So we just have to wait and see.

Aye.

Paradox dying wouldn't necessarily "fix" anything. It'd merely allow for time to march on because it's the standard outcome of what reality is supposed to be. What would fix everything would be them defeating Paradox, and either transcending time to keep reality from disintegrating, or something else. Whatever disaster occurred more than likely occurred regardless cause Paradox decided to travel time and thus fulfill his role in history. So either it's him, or something unrelated to him. I'm going to go with the former because its the only answer we have now that makes sense.

Alright then. But still, with Yoshida hinting that we'll see Paradox in some way... it just bugs me.

People should know better than to expect classic works of literature to be completely adapted properly in movies. I mean, really. It should be enjoyed for what it is, tbh. It was good as a movie, not a page-for-page retelling of the novel.

Yeah, I did enjoy the movie, though. I was just surprised when I read the actual novel. I also enjoyed the Spielberg adaptation of The War Of The Worlds despite all the changes.

No, he never accidentally killed her. And yes, if he did save her, then basically he'd never build the time machine in the first place.

Aha, okay then.

Which is why neither of them can succeed in the first place, not taking into consideration the whole plot wouldn't allow them to in the first place, as well. They're destined to fail because look. They're going back into the past to make it happen as well.

Yeah.

Well apparently in YGO, a paradox results in the universe basically killing itself so...

The worst possible solution for a paradox. I mean, it could be as "simple" as just the individual(s) vanishing. (Eg. in case of the Grandfather Paradox, it would be the man killing his grandfather vanishing.)

Yeah. And if any sort of paradox did happen in 5Ds well...something would've happened and thus, the timeline would more than likely suffer from it. If they actually did any outside damage that wasn't meant to be, then a negative consequence would've manifested itself.

True that.

But even then, I don't think The Emperors really did much harm in the first place. Their little history falsification shockwave was able to be negated partially. That's rather weak.

Of course, their big act is yet to come, whatever thingajig they are going to pull with the Circuit and attempting to blow up Domino City.

Well that all depends on how it ends, really. It could also neatly resolve itself too, which I think is going to be the case. I doubt there will be anything less than a happy ending, especially if the end of the Dark Signer arc is any indication of the direction of the writers.

...Darnit, but I don't want a happy ending like that. Not right away, anyhow. Why can't we have an Oh Crap situation first? Then any other Reset Button can come, especially this being, well, time travel. Curse you, Executive Meddling.

Paradox naturally comes from the same world and universe as the characters. As for the Yliaster and Bruno, they probably come from another dimension. But that wouldn't really change anything. A predestination paradox would even include them regardless of where they come from. Time will always correct itself no matter what.

Ah, okay then. I wasn't sure about that.

The butterfly effects basically assumes that yes, you can change the past quite easily, and everything you do, no matter how small has vast, unknown consequences to the current time period and future. Meaning I could go back in time and step on a bug back during the Prehistoric era, and come back to my own time period and find the world ruled by mutated, talking cockroaches who have enslaved humanity.

The timeline doesn't try to realign itself neatly or resolve any discrepancies. It just runs with them.

Ah. I know of the Butterfly Effect, I just had trouble understanding your sentence and thought you meant something else. XD (I tend to get a language fart sometimes due to it not being my native language.) Alright then.

We don't know what problems they used it to fix, and if they were going to be fixed anyways. For all we know, they tried to use the machine to go back in time to assassinate ****** as a baby, which only resulted in ******'s father secretly adopting a child and raising him to be the Adolf ****** we know of today. And thus nothing changed at all. History isn't something that can just be edited and cherry picked.

That was kinda hilarious to read with the censors. I believe it's censored due to people throwing at it each other as insults, or something.

So basically, you mean This Trope, right?

And there's the fact that whatever happened further in the past doesn't seem to change anything. Or Hell, by the logic introduced by Team Ragnarok, Yugi, Kaiba, Malik, or anyone with the Millennium Items wouldn't be effected by the history falsification because they either have God cards or some other supernatural protection.

That's a good point. It would also explain why Yugi had memory of Pegasus and Sugoroku dying despite being brought back in time and having changed the past by not letting Paradox kill Pegasus.

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the following dialogue in 117 (sorry, copying directly from the sub file because I'm still downloading the episode itself):

• They've altered history.
• Altered history?
• So what Clark and those three from Yliaster were saying is true.
• They're trying to manipulate the past to change today's history.
• But that's impossible...
• So that means that shock was...
• That was the effect of the distortions that changed history.
• I see. So the Crimson Dragon's power must have protected us.
• Indeed. Since they changed the past, that explains why the Momentum Express no longer exists.
• But if Yliaster does have the power to do so...
• Why don't they just eliminate us?
• If Yliaster really does think of us as a hindrance, they'd finish us in more of a hurry by distorting history and making us disappear.
• I don't know if that would be possible with the power of the Crimson Dragon...
• There is another possibility.
• What?
• Maybe some of us have a role.
• A role?
• So is that why Yliaster wants to preserve our existence?
• I will not stand playing a part at their side!
• That isn't known as of yet.
• Then is this a contradiction?
• They have declared... that they will appear and participate in the W.R.G.P. tournament.
• But we will have to fight them in order to get the answers.

Although Jack may have been referring to how they are aware of history changing while everyone else isn't, and pointed out the weird part of it.

It's too hard to speculate. We don't even know what the circuit does so we're just shooting in the dark regarding that, honestly.

We just don't know what it is. It's just...there's a lack of information.

That's true... but it's worth a shot, isn't it? XD

[Nike]

Hey guys, I heard that there's gonna be new footage added for the U.S. Theatrical Release of "Yu-Gi-Oh! 3D: Bonds Beyond Time". Will there be a footage cut from the Japanese Theatrical Version? I'm so amazed!

[Kyte]

Yeah Nike, one source tells us that there'll be added footage but another says there won't be any. So we can't quite tell just yet

[DarkDust_Dragon]

Yeah Nike, one source tells us that there'll be added footage but another says there won't be any. So we can't quite tell just yet

Pretty much. Only time will tell which of the two is being truthful, and which is spreading misinformation.

[63cohen]

Ignoring the huge mass of post above me, Nike, you are correct. A Konami rep said more footage would be added, while an NAS rep said the opposite. I am inclined to believe Konami rather than NAS since Konami markets it worldwide and is the majority brand holder of Yugioh (besides Sheushia whatever). 4kids is the secondary brand holder (outside of Asia).

Now going back to that mass of posts, exactly what is it about? I am very tired and cannot bare to read it all.

[Arynis]

Basically, we were discussing how Paradox would relate to the main series if the movie isn't referenced in the main series due to avoiding that controversy Ark mentioned. Would it make the movie a side story entirely, or would it not? And well, lots and lots of Time Travel babble. And Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Balls. *gives Cohen a Timey Wimey Ball* (Note: Link does not go to TV Tropes... not exactly, anyway.)

[63cohen]

Perhaps NAS could have the movie air on Japanese TV, then people would not have to pay. Why is this such a big deal in Japan? They do it sometimes on American TV. Or they have the movie happen and the events in it are reference as canon in the show. But why not Japan? Just because Toei did it and was harassed?

Link does not work at all (leads to 404)

[Arynis]

I didn't mean to say that just because it happened with Toei, it must happen with NAS and everyone else. It was just an idea that could get us somewhere regarding why there hasn't been any references to the movie at all so far. Nothing saying it's true, of course. As Mako mentioned, the movie's events could have happened but Yusei's just silent about the whole thing.

Damnit. It shows up fine for me... Then again, TV Tropes hates direct links. Just go to the actual Timey Wimey Ball page then. I meant to show the image to you, with that yarn. XD It goes ding and stuff!

[GoldenUmi]

Well nothing so far has really happened that would make Yusei think of Paradox. If any mention were to be made of him, I'd expect it during the final confrontation between the tenors (assuming they know who he is). At least, that's the best way I'd like it to go down. I think they're trying to avoid spoiling the movie for now until it's released.

[Arynis]

Maybe it's just me, but Jose saying they want to save the future is a pretty big one, considering that Paradox babbled about saving the future himself. Yeah, I'm aware that doesn't mean their agendas are related, but... dunno. It just bugs me in the back of my head. Though, if Paradox will be referred to in an awesome way / make an epic entrance / his presence in the main plot in any way will be a Wham, I guess that will make up for all the hush hush. I mean... as long as we won't be let down for all the waiting.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Regarding movies and main series ties, I believe the Pokemon movies don't do it either. The only time there was a connection was when Ash's Aura powers were brought up with the Riolu (I think) but that's it.

[Makoeyes987]

Alright then. But still, with Yoshida hinting that we'll see Paradox in some way... it just bugs me.

I'm sure we'll find out soon.

Hell, how do you think I feel when in almost every situation Yusei could think or bring up Rally, he literally forgets that he, and every single friend he made back in Satellite, ever existed. They're just completely gone. Yanagi, Himuro, Blitz, Nerve, Taka, etc. You'd think the whole parallel to Team Taiyou would at least give us one flashback of him building his D-Wheel with him or something.

No. Yusei has a very screwed up memory and thought process, apparently. Situations that would obviously bring to mind certain events from the past don't seem to do the same thing for Yusei. He's a little bit...special. He doesn't just wear that helmet for riding duels, if you catch my drift.

Yeah, I did enjoy the movie, though. I was just surprised when I read the actual novel. I also enjoyed the Spielberg adaptation of The War Of The Worlds despite all the changes.

So did I. XD

The worst possible solution for a paradox. I mean, it could be as "simple" as just the individual(s) vanishing. (Eg. in case of the Grandfather Paradox, it would be the man killing his grandfather vanishing.)

Yeah, that sure would suck. But I think something along the lines of Futurama's depiction of the Grandfather paradox would probably happen.

...Darnit, but I don't want a happy ending like that. Not right away, anyhow. Why can't we have an Oh Crap situation first? Then any other Reset Button can come, especially this being, well, time travel. Curse you, Executive Meddling.

If the world can survive Dartz, Zorc, Darkness, and the King of the Underworld, I'm sure it'll be just fine. Who cares about an impending apocalypse in the future! It'll all be fine and everyone will live happily ever after! ^_^

Ah. I know of the Butterfly Effect, I just had trouble understanding your sentence and thought you meant something else. XD (I tend to get a language fart sometimes due to it not being my native language.) Alright then.

What is your native language, if I may ask?

That was kinda hilarious to read with the censors. I believe it's censored due to people throwing at it each other as insults, or something.

So basically, you mean This Trope, right?

Yes, that trope exactly. XD

There was an awesome episode of the Twilight Zone that tackled such an opportunity. It was quite amusing.

I don't get why a historical figure would be blocked on an internet forum, but they do say whoever brings up ****** in a debate loses automatically so...

That's a good point. It would also explain why Yugi had memory of Pegasus and Sugoroku dying despite being brought back in time and having changed the past by not letting Paradox kill Pegasus.

*nods*

I'm talking about the following dialogue in 117 (sorry, copying directly from the sub file because I'm still downloading the episode itself):



Although Jack may have been referring to how they are aware of history changing while everyone else isn't, and pointed out the weird part of it.

I think that's what Jack was referring to, in terms of history being changed around them. What I'm referring to, is how Jeager was still able to maintain his position within Security, even though Team New World changed the past with them suddenly being competitors in the WRGP. It didn't really change the whole Security Bureau structure.


Anyways, I do hope that whatever part Paradox has to play, is interesting and relevant, and not something that appears to be shoehorned or gimmicky.

...Like Team Ragnarok.

[Arynis]

I'm sure we'll find out soon.

Hell, how do you think I feel when in almost every situation Yusei could think or bring up Rally, he literally forgets that he, and every single friend he made back in Satellite, ever existed. They're just completely gone. Yanagi, Himuro, Blitz, Nerve, Taka, etc. You'd think the whole parallel to Team Taiyou would at least give us one flashback of him building his D-Wheel with him or something.

No. Yusei has a very screwed up memory and thought process, apparently. Situations that would obviously bring to mind certain events from the past don't seem to do the same thing for Yusei. He's a little bit...special. He doesn't just wear that helmet for riding duels, if you catch my drift.

It's especially sad in Rally's case, considering he went batshit when Rudger used Rally, who then committed a Heroic Sacrifice instead. And then... "Rally? What Rally? We know no such person by this point, sorry man."

I could see Rally and co. living in another part of the City, but that doesn't explain why they never visit Yusei.

ffff. I blame the capsule Yusei was ported away in as a baby. It didn't look very safe. (At least the movie was generous enough to change it to a slightly safer version by putting in belts. Still.)

So did I. XD

I loved the Martian Tripod designs for that movie. But I also liked the rock opera, that was brilliant! And the 1953 film adaptation... The 1997 RTS video game... But eh, I'm going off-topic here. XD

Yeah, that sure would suck. But I think something along the lines of Futurama's depiction of the Grandfather paradox would probably happen.

Like Jose becoming his own grandfather? I'd pay to see that.

If the world can survive Dartz, Zorc, Darkness, and the King of the Underworld, I'm sure it'll be just fine. Who cares about an impending apocalypse in the future! It'll all be fine and everyone will live happily ever after! ^_^

ffffffffffff. XD

What is your native language, if I may ask?

Sure! I'm Hungarian. ^^

Yes, that trope exactly. XD

There was an awesome episode of the Twilight Zone that tackled such an opportunity. It was quite amusing.

I don't get why a historical figure would be blocked on an internet forum, but they do say whoever brings up ****** in a debate loses automatically so...

Oh? I'm not familiar with Twilight Zone, though.

True that. Or there's that saying about [Everyone's favorite buff Magnificent Bastard]'s Law...

I think that's what Jack was referring to, in terms of history being changed around them. What I'm referring to, is how Jeager was still able to maintain his position within Security, even though Team New World changed the past with them suddenly being competitors in the WRGP. It didn't really change the whole Security Bureau structure.

Ah, okay then. Although Yeager was also protected by the Signers' powers. And I don't think the Tenors did anything significant as Directors, so them disappearing wasn't an issue for that reason, I suppose. So everything stayed the same just as if Godwin had vanished from his post and no one replaced him since.

Anyways, I do hope that whatever part Paradox has to play, is interesting and relevant, and not something that appears to be shoehorned or gimmicky.

...Like Team Ragnarok.

Yeah, same. I was a bit worried when I heard that Paradox's story wasn't elaborated on too much in the movie, but it wasn't as bad as I thought in the end. And he still has his "Is he a hero? Or really a villain?" Grey And Gray Morality going on. He's an interesting character, and I'd hate him to go awry. Especially after all the hype.

I lol'd.

[Makoeyes987]

It's especially sad in Rally's case, considering he went batshit when Rudger used Rally, who then committed a Heroic Sacrifice instead. And then... "Rally? What Rally? We know no such person by this point, sorry man."

I could see Rally and co. living in another part of the City, but that doesn't explain why they never visit Yusei.

ffff. I blame the capsule Yusei was ported away in as a baby. It didn't look very safe. (At least the movie was generous enough to change it to a slightly safer version by putting in belts. Still.)

I try to keep in mind its due to the crappy writers of YGO today, but I can't deny that its made me like and respect him less.

I mean, how can you take a character who harps on and on about bonds, friendship, has a name that references the planetary particle which means he would connect people through bonds, and all this other crap, when he basically ditched his old friends and doesn't even keep in contact with them? I mean that's just hypocritical.

I loved the Martian Tripod designs for that movie. But I also liked the rock opera, that was brilliant! And the 1953 film adaptation... The 1997 RTS video game... But eh, I'm going off-topic here. XD

They were very cool.

Like Jose becoming his own grandfather? I'd pay to see that.

I'd pay NOT to see that.

Sure! I'm Hungarian. ^^

Ohhh, okay! So you live in Hungary?

[FONT="Tahoma"]Oh? I'm not familiar with Twilight Zone, though.

Aww, really? That's a shame. One of the best classic, Sci-Fi tv series of our time. Rod Serling is one of my all time favorite story tellers. He was an awesome guy and could tell a helluva story. You should seriously watch it. Well that's what I would tell you if the "Syfy" channel still aired science fiction televison. Ugh.

Ah, okay then. Although Yeager was also protected by the Signers' powers. And I don't think the Tenors did anything significant as Directors, so them disappearing wasn't an issue for that reason, I suppose. So everything stayed the same just as if Godwin had vanished from his post and no one replaced him since.

Exactly. Their history re-write wasn't that wide spread, except in terms of self inserting themselves into their own tournament. You know, I really do wonder if people who work in Security ever wonder who these guys are, and question their authority or right to take office. I mean, you'd think Ushio, or someone would've brought up, "hey, umm...why are you guys here aside from you claiming to be from Yliaster?"

There is one good thing I guess about Team Ragnarok. They don't suffer from the dragon fetish that permeates YGO. Which is probably why Paradox snubbed them.

[DarkDust_Dragon]

Anyways, I do hope that whatever part Paradox has to play, is interesting and relevant, and not something that appears to be shoehorned or gimmicky.

...Like Team Ragnarok.

Mako, this is an anime about a Card Game. Did you not expect characters SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO SHOWCASE NEW GOD CARDS? Again?

I mean, how can you take a character who harps on and on about bonds, friendship, has a name that references the planetary particle which means he would connect people through bonds, and all this other crap, when he basically ditched his old friends and doesn't even keep in contact with them? I mean that's just hypocritical.

With the exception of the name, two words: Yuki Judai.

[Makoeyes987]

Mako, this is an anime about a Card Game. Did you not expect characters SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO SHOWCASE NEW GOD CARDS? Again?

ACTUALLY NO. I didn't!

I kinda thought the whole God card thing was sacred. Since they hadn't touched that for over 8 years, and the Egyptian God cards were considered truly one of a kind due to their type, effects, and history with Pegasus. I had no clue a random trio of Norwegians in limos with Geass knock offs would bounce onto the scene with random God cards no one's heard about.

Maybe I'm just naive. Since if they were gonna make more God cards, you'd think they'd have done it with the Sacred Beasts, the obvious God card cousins. I'm just weird I guess!

With the exception of the name, two words: Yuki Judai.

Yuki Judai didn't really go on about bonds and crap as much as Yusei. So I don't really see it as the same thing at all.

[Arynis]

I mean, how can you take a character who harps on and on about bonds, friendship, has a name that references the planetary particle which means he would connect people through bonds, and all this other crap, when he basically ditched his old friends and doesn't even keep in contact with them? I mean that's just hypocritical.

Characters oozing with irony will bite them in the rear. Badly... Eventually.

They were very cool.

YES. I especially liked the video game, because you could see the story from the Martians' perspective. That was awesome. And in general, the various machines were great. The Tempest was my favorite. >D

Oh, and the tour with Jeff Wayne's musical = win. Seeing Justin Hayward and Chris Thompson live was great. As well as Jeff Wayne himself. Richard Burton's head was a bit creepy, but I loved how they paid tribute to him as well.

On a side note, I take it you like H.G. Wells' novels as well?

I'd pay NOT to see that.

An old man raising an equally old old man...

Ohhh, okay! So you live in Hungary?

Yep! I'm not the only one here on Janime, though. =D

Aww, really? That's a shame. One of the best classic, Sci-Fi tv series of our time. Rod Serling is one of my all time favorite story tellers. He was an awesome guy and could tell a helluva story. You should seriously watch it. Well that's what I would tell you if the "Syfy" channel still aired science fiction televison. Ugh.

Ahh, I see.

Exactly. Their history re-write wasn't that wide spread, except in terms of self inserting themselves into their own tournament. You know, I really do wonder if people who work in Security ever wonder who these guys are, and question their authority or right to take office. I mean, you'd think Ushio, or someone would've brought up, "hey, umm...why are you guys here aside from you claiming to be from Yliaster?"

Hahaha. Didn't Mikage say she didn't know much about them? The Tenors could have been working in secrecy so not too many knew of them well enough.

There is one good thing I guess about Team Ragnarok. They don't suffer from the dragon fetish that permeates YGO. Which is probably why Paradox snubbed them.

I already said it before that dragons, according to Freudian symbolism, represent power! Why do you think it's always the rivals sporting them as their signature monsters? (Well... usually.) Apart from the whole Dragons Are Cool argument.

I kinda thought the whole God card thing was sacred. Since they hadn't touched that for over 8 years, and the Egyptian God cards were considered truly one of a kind due to their type, effects, and history with Pegasus. I had no clue a random trio of Norwegians in limos with Geass knock offs would bounce onto the scene with random God cards no one's heard about.

Maybe I'm just naive. Since if they were gonna make more God cards, you'd think they'd have done it with the Sacred Beasts, the obvious God card cousins. I'm just weird I guess!

Nah, everyone has their own view of things. No need to feel bad for it.

Though, it's CORPORATE INTERESTS. Maybe the OCG Gods were successful. Or Konami just saw a good selling point potential. *shrug* Hey, it's still better than every Boss Opponent possessing a Divine attribute monster(s).

[63cohen]

Well, only 1 more day guys/gals. Then we get to learn more about the dub of the movie, and the movie as a whole. Speculations can continue (just thought to point it out)

[DarkDust_Dragon]

ACTUALLY NO. I didn't!

That was more my own frustration than yelling at you. Sorry.

I kinda thought the whole God card thing was sacred. Since they hadn't touched that for over 8 years, and the Egyptian God cards were considered truly one of a kind due to their type, effects, and history with Pegasus. I had no clue a random trio of Norwegians in limos with Geass knock offs would bounce onto the scene with random God cards no one's heard about.

Come on man, this is 5D's. All concepts from the original must be completely parodied.

Maybe I'm just naive. Since if they were gonna make more God cards, you'd think they'd have done it with the Sacred Beasts, the obvious God card cousins. I'm just weird I guess!

It’s definitely obscure; but it was most likely going to happen eventually. After they released Legal Gods, anyway.

Yuki Judai didn't really go on about bonds and crap as much as Yusei. So I don't really see it as the same thing at all.

Not as much, but he really played up the whole “power of friendship” thing waaaaaaay too much.

[Makoeyes987]

Characters oozing with irony will bite them in the rear. Badly... Eventually.

I sometimes wonder if the writers really understand or care about what they have Yusei say, or if they just think "hmm...we need to have him say something right now...uh...let's have him talk about bonds again for 2 minutes!"

YES. I especially liked the video game, because you could see the story from the Martians' perspective. That was awesome. And in general, the various machines were great. The Tempest was my favorite. >D

Never played the video game. Heck I didn't even know about it. But that's probably cause I tend to stay away from video games based on movies.

Oh, and the tour with Jeff Wayne's musical = win. Seeing Justin Hayward and Chris Thompson live was great. As well as Jeff Wayne himself. Richard Burton's head was a bit creepy, but I loved how they paid tribute to him as well.

Ohhh, that sounds like lots of fun.

On a side note, I take it you like H.G. Wells' novels as well?

Oh yes, definitely.

An old man raising an equally old old man...

LOL that'd be rather freaky and hilarious to see.

Yep! I'm not the only one here on Janime, though. =D

Ohhh, that's cool! Now I finally know XD



Hahaha. Didn't Mikage say she didn't know much about them? The Tenors could have been working in secrecy so not too many knew of them well enough.

I already said it before that dragons, according to Freudian symbolism, represent power! Why do you think it's always the rivals sporting them as their signature monsters? (Well... usually.) Apart from the whole Dragons Are Cool argument.

That and they're awfully phallic, and we all know what THAT means!

Nah, everyone has their own view of things. No need to feel bad for it.

Though, it's CORPORATE INTERESTS. Maybe the OCG Gods were successful. Or Konami just saw a good selling point potential. *shrug* Hey, it's still better than every Boss Opponent possessing a Divine attribute monster(s).

That's basically what I'm thinking. Which is cool...I guess. I don't really mind we have new God cards. I just wish that they were given more relevance to the story.

And I kinda feel that previous cards that were supposed to be Divine, should be errata'd into the attribute as well.

[Kyte]

Well, was hoping Konami would add some last minute details this past week before the WC if they were to reveal more info or such but seems not. What we read is what we get. And tomorrow is the day! I'm aiming to get there an hour before to get a good seat and get the first showing incase if they talk about the movie beforehand. Then at noon is the Q&A with Greg Abbey (now I know what he looks like after also seeing a Shonen Jump Championship video) so I'll keep a look for him if I see him before or after the session. I also may as well capture any footage of the Tag Force 5 and Duel Transer along with other games they're showcasing.

Now the only question left is if I should cosplay fully or just wear the wig, marker on cheek, and a 'Card games on motorcycles' tee *shot*

[Lia]

Well, was hoping Konami would add some last minute details this past week before the WC if they were to reveal more info or such but seems not. What we read is what we get. And tomorrow is the day! I'm aiming to get there an hour before to get a good seat and get the first showing incase if they talk about the movie beforehand. Then at noon is the Q&A with Greg Abbey (now I know what he looks like after also seeing a Shonen Jump Championship video) so I'll keep a look for him if I see him before or after the session. I also may as well capture any footage of the Tag Force 5 and Duel Transer along with other games they're showcasing.

Now the only question left is if I should cosplay fully or just wear the wig, marker on cheek, and a 'Card games on motorcycles' tee *shot*

Just one day left. We all hope you'll succeed in making any record of the preview. Good luck!

[Kyte]

Thanks, Lia!

Its in 8 hours in my time, so its really exciting. Got all stuff set and made sure to bring extra memory cards for the camera because I'm sure I'll find plenty of stuff to snap pics or take video coverage. I do hope we get as much new info we haven't heard yet and not recycled info just in English. Perhaps they'll rephrase a few things for us to better understand, maybe. Would be interesting if they say how Paradox is related to 5D's but maybe they'll say specifically unlike the animation book which kept us wondering for some time. Though it seems I'll only be attending the first day. Expect me to come with as much info as possible in the evening, Pacific Time. Hope to bring goodies ^_^

[Arynis]

I sometimes wonder if the writers really understand or care about what they have Yusei say, or if they just think "hmm...we need to have him say something right now...uh...let's have him talk about bonds again for 2 minutes!"

There's still the potential for making it all ironic in retrospect. There was that cliffhanger with Yusei thinking about his father. Luciano mentioned Yusei's curse isn't over yet. They could still pull this off well.

I could see it being another Deconstruction. GX demonstrated with Judai what would happen were you forced to play the game for the sake of the world / for your friends lives. 5D's could deconstruct friendship speeches and bonds with Yusei. Or the aspect of Yusei: the Yusei particle. Which is used for the Momentum.

I've heard people disliking Yusei for being "too perfect" ala Mr. Fixit. But... perhaps there's a plot reason for this? The characters noted that Yusei is very inspirational, I recall Sherry saying it as well. ("Yusei... what in the world are you?") It could backfire massively.

Never played the video game. Heck I didn't even know about it. But that's probably cause I tend to stay away from video games based on movies.

While WOTW had several games based on it, the RTS was based on the rock opera. And of course, it has the musical's music in it (well, remixed). It's awesome.

Ohhh, that sounds like lots of fun.

It should be up on Youtube, at least I know Eve Of The War is. You should give it a look! ^^

Oh yes, definitely.

Hooray! I'm not alone! For a long time I thought I was the only person who knew of H.G. Wells. (Some of my friends did, but his name is still not something you'd expect to pop up often.)

LOL that'd be rather freaky and hilarious to see.

No doubt. XD

Ohhh, that's cool! Now I finally know XD

:]

That and they're awfully phallic, and we all know what THAT means!

Of course. (But as DarkDust put it, he's been one of the last survivors of whatever catastrophe happened in the future. It must have been... quite a while.)

That's basically what I'm thinking. Which is cool...I guess. I don't really mind we have new God cards. I just wish that they were given more relevance to the story.

And I kinda feel that previous cards that were supposed to be Divine, should be errata'd into the attribute as well.

Well, we have yet to see Team Ragnarok's story. Then we'll see if they indeed fit into the story or are just mere advertising fodder.

Hmm. Do you mean the EBGs? Although I think Sin Truth Dragon could be fitting for the Divine Attribute as well. Thunderbolts in the background, the fact that Sin Paradigm Shift glowed in red, blue and yellow. It's a powerful monster which required Paradox himself as a sacrifice. Of course, calling Sin Truth Dragon a divine card would be somewhat funny.

But it would raise problems. How did Paradox acquire a God, in that case? If the Power of Sin comes from him, does that mean he manifested the God himself? Or going by the "Duel Monsters represent their owners" logic, would it make Paradox an anomaly, some kind of an incarnation of Sin Truth? He's a servant of his own power?

~~~

And yeah, today is the day! Except it's still early morning in the US, dayum.

EDIT: Just saw your reply, Kyte. Evening in Pacific Time should be early morning or morning for me. Good luck! And well, enjoy the event! =D

[Allana]

Thanks, Lia!

Its in 8 hours in my time, so its really exciting. Got all stuff set and made sure to bring extra memory cards for the camera because I'm sure I'll find plenty of stuff to snap pics or take video coverage. I do hope we get as much new info we haven't heard yet and not recycled info just in English. Perhaps they'll rephrase a few things for us to better understand, maybe. Would be interesting if they say how Paradox is related to 5D's but maybe they'll say specifically unlike the animation book which kept us wondering for some time. Though it seems I'll only be attending the first day. Expect me to come with as much info as possible in the evening, Pacific Time. Hope to bring goodies ^_^

Enjoy the event! Good luck for all!

[DarkDust_Dragon]

Well, we have yet to see Team Ragnarok's story. Then we'll see if they indeed fit into the story or are just mere advertising fodder.

I know which one I'm betting on...

Hmm. Do you mean the EBGs? Although I think Sin Truth Dragon could be fitting for the Divine Attribute as well. Thunderbolts in the background, the fact that Sin Paradigm Shift glowed in red, blue and yellow. It's a powerful monster which required Paradox himself as a sacrifice. Of course, calling Sin Truth Dragon a divine card would be somewhat funny.

Red, Yellow and Blue is a recurring colour cheme for more than Gods. The face card knights, XYZ, etc. have them. Plus, the Wicked Gods are mostly drab, putrid colours, and the Norse Gods are really not discernible for having a colour scheme.

But it would raise problems. How did Paradox acquire a God, in that case? If the Power of Sin comes from him, does that mean he manifested the God himself? Or going by the "Duel Monsters represent their owners" logic, would it make Paradox an anomaly, some kind of an incarnation of Sin Truth? He's a servant of his own power?

Perhaps... perhaps the God manifested him from itself. We've already seen that false memories can be fabricated in this series rather easily; if Paradox was in fact a shell, or a pawn, suddenly it makes sense. Because he then becomes way more paradoxical. Think about it.

[Arynis]

Red, Yellow and Blue is a recurring colour cheme for more than Gods. The face card knights, XYZ, etc. have them. Plus, the Wicked Gods are mostly drab, putrid colours, and the Norse Gods are really not discernible for having a colour scheme.

Aye, true. It's just that the Egyptian Gods / Sangenma came to my mind first.

Although red, blue, yellow are also the basic colors. Hrm.

Perhaps... perhaps the God manifested him from itself. We've already seen that false memories can be fabricated in this series rather easily; if Paradox was in fact a shell, or a pawn, suddenly it makes sense. Because he then becomes way more paradoxical. Think about it.

That'd be an awesome twist. Except... don't we have Bruno already? He's kind of like Zone's baby to an extent, and Zone is pretty much considered a god.

I see where you are getting at, however. (And yes, it'd be quite paradoxical.)

[DarkDust_Dragon]

Aye, true. It's just that the Egyptian Gods / Sangenma came to my mind first.

Although red, blue, yellow are also the basic colors. Hrm.

One of the reasons the Primary Colours are chosen is because they spawn all other colours. They are above all the other colours. It just makes sense; but it's nothing more than a motif.

That'd be an awesome twist. Except... don't we have Bruno already? He's kind of like Zone's baby to an extent, and Zone is pretty much considered a god.

I see where you are getting at, however. (And yes, it'd be quite paradoxical.)

Bruno is a spawn of God; I'm taking about Paradox and Sin Truth being one and the same, with Paradox as a mere extension of its being.

[Arynis]

One of the reasons the Primary Colours are chosen is because they spawn all other colours. They are above all the other colours. It just makes sense; but it's nothing more than a motif.

Ah, I see.

Bruno is a spawn of God; I'm taking about Paradox and Sin Truth being one and the same, with Paradox as a mere extension of its being.

That wasn't clear to me, sorry.

But yeah, that'd be wicked. It would explain why Paradox prefers dragons so much in that scenario... because he's a dragon himself.

[NeoArkadia]

Cool controversy though, did LeArk come up with the whole thing himself?

The Decade thing? Well, I was told that by Shadow Demon Rex (Another nice member of this board, doesn't post alot). It would make sense to avoid you know, pissing off Moral Guardians and Network People, though.